The Sustainable Winegrowing podcast brings you the latest science and research for the wine industry from the world’s top experts and experienced growers. In the time it takes to drive from one vineyard to another, you can listen to in-depth technical information on topics like integrated pest management, fruit quality, water conservation, and nutrient management.
Why do most tasting room guests show up? It’s not for the wine. Dan McCole (Michigan State University) shares research-backed tips to elevate customer experience through atmosphere, staff engagement, and showcasing accolades.
Resources:
Fungicide resistance in powdery and downy mildew is a growing challenge in Australian vineyards. Ismail Ahmed Ismail, Senior Research Officer at the South Australian Research and Development Institute, discusses a decade-long national study on fungicide resistance in Australian vineyards. Listeners will learn how spore trapping is being made practical and affordable, the use of phenotyping and genotyping to detect resistance, and why monitoring fungal populations is critical for sustainable disease management across FRAC groups.
How do volatile phenols from wildfire smoke interact with wine chemistry? Mango Parker, Senior Research Scientist at the Australian Wine Research Institute, breaks down the science of smoke taint in wine. From identifying early markers like guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol to uncovering the complex web of over a thousand compounds involved, Mango shares insights from two decades of research into how smoke transforms wine—from vineyard to barrel.
Discover how prioritizing employee engagement can elevate your sustainability efforts and business success. This episode explores real-world examples from Niner Wine Estates, Ancient Peaks, and Hope Family Wines, where workplace culture, strong benefits, and community involvement turn staff into long-term, loyal brand ambassadors. Learn why engaged employees are key to implementing best practices and creating meaningful customer connections.
Plus, find out how to start empowering your team with a free 30-minute online course.
Pest Friends is a hands-on simulation that helps farmers make smarter Integrated Pest Management (IPM) decisions—by making the field a game board. Grant Loomis and Jason Thomas, Extension Educators with the University of Idaho, created Pest Friends to help players experience the real-life consequences of pest control. Players manage population dynamics, reacting to pest pressures, and decide when—and if—to intervene with pesticides, habitat modifications, or beneficial insect support. It’s not just educational—it’s a window into how people think about pest management.
Can hybrid grapes revolutionize the wine world? Adam Huss — Host of the Beyond Organic podcast and Co-owner of Centralas Cellars breaks down what a hybrid truly is, explaining how traditional breeding — and nature itself — has long crossed grape species. With over 70 grape species worldwide, today's modern hybrids are the result of generations of crossing, backcrossing, and innovation.
We explore the impact of WWII on agriculture, France’s ban on hybrids in appellation wines, and why developing new hybrids is critical for disease resistance, flavor discovery, and more sustainable farming.
Plus, Adam shares insights into trialing the “married vine” system — a potential game-changer for soil health, pest management, and flavor expression.
Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.
Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.
[00:00:03] Beth Vukmanic: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director
[00:00:13] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with longtime SIP Certified Vineyard in the first ever. SIP Certified Winery speaks with Adam Huss, host of the Beyond Organic Podcast and co-owner of Centralis Cellars.
[00:00:32] Adam breaks down what a hybrid truly is, explaining how traditional breeding and nature itself has long crossed grape species with over 70 grape species worldwide. Today's modern hybrids are the result of generations of crossing, backcrossing, and innovation.
[00:00:50] We explore the impact of World War II on agriculture, France's ban on hybrids and Appalachian wines, and why developing new hybrids is critical for disease resistance, flavor discovery, and more sustainable farming.
[00:01:03] Plus, Adam shares insights into trialing the married vine system, a potential game changer for soil health, pest management, and flavor expression.
[00:01:12] When Lizbeth didn't get into nursing school on her first try, she could have given up. Instead, she partnered with her mentor Alex, to make a new plan, attend classes part-time, build up her resume and get hands-on hospital work experience. Now Lizbeth has been accepted into Cuesta College's nursing program and her dream of becoming a nurse is back on track.
[00:01:36] Lizbeth is a Vineyard Team, Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholar. You can help more students like her who are the children of Vineyard and winery workers reach their dreams of earning a degree by donating to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. Just go to vineyardteam.org/donate.
[00:01:53] Now let's listen in.
[00:01:58] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Adam Huss. He is the host of the Beyond Organic Podcast and also co-owner of Centralis Winery in Los Angeles, California. And today we're gonna talk about hybrid grape varieties. Welcome to the podcast, Adam.
[00:02:11] Adam Huss: Thanks, Craig. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:17] Craig Macmillan: So let's just start with the basics. What are hybrid grape varieties?
[00:02:22] Adam Huss: I should also say I'm a fan of your podcast as well, so it's really fun to be here.
[00:02:26] Craig Macmillan: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:02:28] Adam Huss: Been listening for a while. So hybrids, I mean, it's really simple. It's funny, I see stuff on Instagram sometimes where people just are so misinformed and they think that, you know, hybrid means like GMO or something like that.
[00:02:41] A hybrid simply is just, you take pollen from grape X, you put it on flowers from grape y, and if those two grapes are from different species, you have a hybrid. If they're from the same species, you just have a cross, and this is something that has been part of traditional breeding since forever. It's also what happens naturally in the wild.
[00:03:00] Or I hate, I actually just use two words I try not to use at all, which is like natural and wild, but in forests and streams forests and backyards without human intervention, these pollen get exchanged by wind and everything else and have led to, you know, some of the more. Old popular varieties of grapes that are, considered hybrids that we know of now, like Norton and Isabella and Kaaba.
[00:03:23] Nobody actually crossed them. They just happened. So yeah, that's, that's a hybrid. It's very simple.
[00:03:29] Craig Macmillan: That's what they are, what aren't they and what are some of the myths surrounding them?
[00:03:33] Adam Huss: yeah, great question. You can't generalize about hybrids. Generally speaking. So that's really important thing for people to wrap their heads around, which is because. You know, we'll get into this, but so much, so many hybrids are, and just hybrids in general, are wrapped up in prejudice because we live in this sort of viniferous centric wine world.
[00:03:56] You know, , those of us who are in wine, but there, you just can't generalize. The qualities of hybrids are just like humans. Like it depends on what your parents are. You know, you, you get different things every time you mix 'em up and you're not like your brother or sister. If you have a sibling, you know you're gonna be different from them even though you have the same parents.
[00:04:13] So that's the same thing happens with grapes. There's genetic diversity and mutation happens and. For hybrids, , the possibilities, the potentials are literally infinite. It's pretty incredible to know that possibility exists. There are over 70 species of grapes on earth besides vitus vara, and if you cross any of those two varieties, yeah, you'll get a genetic cross that's 50 50 of, of two different species.
[00:04:40] But that. Within that you could do that cross again and get a different variety of grape, even with the same cross. So it's just amazing.
[00:04:51] The modern hybrids that are now out there are. Often multi-species crosses and have been crossed. Generationally again and again and back crossed and recrossed. And so, you know, I was just looking at a hybrid grape that had five species of grapes in its family tree. I mean, there are family trees that would make the royals blush, honestly, in some of these hybrids.
[00:05:11] So it's not, it's not something that is just, can be just said. You can say one thing about it or that. And, and the idea of hybridizing doesn't imply anything at all, really, like it is just this process that happens that we've been doing for a long time. This might be a good thing to dispel some of the prejudices.
[00:05:34] You know, something like the word foxy often gets thrown around when we start talking about hybrids. I did a whole podcast about this what's really interesting, I just brought this word up to a, a young couple here in LA who are growing grapes and they, they had no idea what I was talking about.
[00:05:49] So that's kind of encouraging. Like in, in the younger generations, these prejudices and some of these words that we inherited from the last century , are dying out truly. Which is great, but it still persists and you still hear it a lot and. If anybody goes online and researches some of these grapes, so much of the information available online is actually still misinformation and prejudiced because it comes from this vinifirous centric culture.
[00:06:15] And so it's really important for people to understand that like foxy is not what it sounds like. It sounds like it would be this animalistic, musky, maybe scent gland tinged aroma, flavor thing, but. If you taste the grapes that are known as foxy and you go, you know, start researching this by tasting, you'll find that it's actually kind of delicious.
[00:06:37] It's usually fruity and you know, candy like strawberry raspberry flavors. And for those of us in the US. It's often something we associate with Grapiness because of Welchs. And the flavors of Welchs, which come from the Concord grape, which is a Foxy grape, are these grapey flavors that we grew up with.
[00:06:57] This sense of like grape candy and stuff like that. And that's a lot of times what you find in these, but again, it depends a lot on. The level of the compounds that are in that specific hybrid. Again, you can't, you can't generalize. And just like with anything, if you mix different compounds together, you'll get these nuances and you might have some of that flavor or aroma, but it'll be blended with other things.
[00:07:17] And so it takes on new characteristics. So it's way more complex than just thinking like a. All grapes that are hybridized are foxy. That's absolutely not true. Or that foxy is this monolithic thing or that foxy is bad. None of those are true. And then really the other thing to realize is in. Grapes in the native North American varieties of species of grapes.
[00:07:41] There's really only one that has been used traditionally in grape breeding and hybridization that has these flavors. And that's Vitus labrusca. It just happened to be used quite a bit because it's endemic to the East coast where a lot of the Europeans who started all this breeding were living and, and it was, you know, very readily apparent in the forest of the East coast.
[00:07:59] So that. Got used a lot and it's also got a lot of great qualities of fungal resistance and stuff like that. Muscadine is the other grape that has it, but it's got a different genetic structure so it doesn't get crossed a lot or hybridized a lot.
[00:08:11] Craig Macmillan: So like, what are the advantages of hybrids where you take vinifira and you cross it with a Native American indigenous grape? What are the benefits?
[00:08:21] Adam Huss: Yeah. Another great question. Just , the historical perspective on this is really important. I think. So, you know, Europeans came here a couple hundred years ago, and eventually they brought some of their favorite plants over, one of which were their grapes. And what they noticed right away is that their grapes, I.
[00:08:38] Suffered and died without exception, just across the board. Anything they brought over grape wise just kept dying, kept dying. You know, many people tried for a century at least, you know, including people like Thomas Jefferson, people with enormous amounts of resources, and they just failed. They failed to grow these grapes.
[00:08:56] Meanwhile, you know, these things like. Norton, this, these hybridized grapes started developing and people noticed like, oh, this grape, it's crossing with some of , the local varieties and it's doing really well. So they began to realize, like they didn't know then that part of, one of the benefits that you get is phylloxera resistance, for example.
[00:09:16] But that was a big one and came to save, you know, Europe's wine industry at the end of the 19th century. But also you have these grapes that . Evolved with the fungal pathogens of this, of these climates of North America and other places around the planet. So they've developed resistance and tolerance for all these things.
[00:09:38] And so when you cross them with vinifira, you get some of the desirable characteristics that you might like from Vera, and hopefully you'll get some of that, you know, hardiness and fungal resistance and some of the other, just. General benefits of having hybridized interesting new flavors and characteristics
[00:09:56] Craig Macmillan: have you seen some examples of this in your, in your travels?
[00:10:01] Adam Huss: the fungal resistance and things like
[00:10:03] Craig Macmillan: resistance or Pierces disease resistance or anything like that.
[00:10:07] Adam Huss: Oh yeah. I mean, I. Whew, so many. I mean, the fact that people can grow grapes organically in Vermont for example, relies almost entirely on hybrids. You know, first of all, they have extremely cold winters there. They have extremely wet, hot, humid summers there. And if you try to grow vinifera there the only way to do it is with chemicals and, and a lot of heartache and, and high risk agriculture.
[00:10:35] But here we have somebody like Matt Niess, who's working entirely with hybrids, with his winery, north American Press, and basically he's not using any sprays in any of his vineyards in here in California because these. These grapes have genetics that developed for resistance to the fungal pathogens of the East Coast.
[00:10:55] And so you bring them to this nice dry, you know, Mediterranean climate, they're just like, they're crazy. They're like you know, they're, you can basically spray free now. I mean, some people have a problem with zero sprays because they don't want things to develop, but he has a 70-year-old baco noir vineyard, for example, that's in like a wet region in Sonoma that.
[00:11:18] He has never sprayed and it's pumping out grapes and looking beautiful every year. And the really interesting thing about it's, there are some inter plantations of vinfiera in that like somebody. Planted something. Maybe it was Pinot Noir in with the Baco. It's like one every, you know, like there's only a few, a handful of these scattered throughout the acre of the Baco noir, and you can tell which ones those are every year because they're just decimated by mildew by the end of the year, whereas the Baco is just spotless and beautiful.
[00:11:46] So that's a really like obvious,
[00:11:49] Craig Macmillan: What are the wines like? The bako noir? I've never had a bako noir.
[00:11:53] Adam Huss: Oh, his wines. Well, so Baco is nice. It's, I mean, it's higher acid. It's almost like a high acid. Gosh, I don't know what, it's hard. I, I, I hate to go down the rabbit hole of like trying to compare it to a vinifira, but it is unique. But it's a deep red almost interior, like with deep purple, higher acid flavors, but pretty balanced, really luscious. Dark fruited flavors maybe a little. Like Syrah, like meatiness, there may be a touch. You might find that it depends on the year. He's had a couple different vintages, so it's been really interesting to see. I'm, I'm kinda like loving following that year by year, seeing the vintage variation and what.
[00:12:35] Different things come out because nobody's really doing this. Nobody's, nobody's experimenting with these. So we don't really know how they'll do in, in California other than what he's doing. And just a couple other growers. But he also this year introduced awba for the first time back into California.
[00:12:50] The last catawba Vines were ripped out of California in like the sixties, and he, planted some and finally was able to harvest a crop this year and released what was once. California, I mean, the America's most popular wine from the Ohio River Valley is sparkling catawba, and it's like pink and just delicious, beautiful, beautiful stuff.
[00:13:10] If I can step back, I think a lot of the discussion of hybrids, again, comes from this perspective of vinifira culture and how do we. Help vinifera become better. How do we use these hybrids as a tool to help, you know, this sort of vinifira centric culture? But I, I would, I'd like to reframe it.
[00:13:31] I think a better way to look at this is hybridization is kind of just what we always do with agriculture. It's how you evolve and adapt your agriculture. Ecologically in the absence of modern chemistry that we have. So like before World War ii, and part of, and this is part of the history, France's history too, is like, you know, we had RA decimating their, their vineyards as well as. , we didn't just bring phylloxera back from North America, we brought BlackRock, Downey mildew, powdery mildew. So , their vines were just like dying. Like they were just dying. And so there was this urgent need and a lot of the hybridization, a lot of, some of our, you know, hybrids like Save El Blanc and things like that.
[00:14:15] Came from French breeders who were just trying to save the French wine industry. Like they just wanted to have wine, let alone vinifira. You know, it was that. It was pretty bad at the end of that set, you know? And so they developed these new things and then we, you know, things like Isabella and catawba and things like that were coming over from North America, some of our hybrids that came from here, and pretty soon they had these really productive, really hardy vines with new, interesting flavors that.
[00:14:41] People kinda liked 'cause they are like fruity and delicious and interesting and new and, and if you're a farmer and you have less inputs and you get a more productive, like higher yields on your vine, like, it's just kind of a no-brainer. And so people were just planting these things. They really were taking off.
[00:14:59] And in 1934, the French were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like our, our, first of all, our. Ancient vinifera cultures are going to be completely diluted, but second of all, we're gonna devalue the market 'cause we're gonna have all this like, it's too abundant, you know? So they made, in 1934, they made hybrids illegal in the French Appalachians.
[00:15:17] And so that legacy is something that still sticks with us. Of course then World War II happened and we. Didn't really pay much attention to wine at all 'cause we were just trying to survive. But once World War II was over and the the war machine transferred into the pesticide and industrial agricultural machine, the French realized they could keep Vera alive on root stocks of American hybrids or American native varieties by spraying them with these new novel chemistry chemicals.
[00:15:49] And so then they started enforcing the ban on hybrids because they could, and they knew they could have the, this alternative. And so that's when you saw like they had their own sort of version of reefer madness where you, you saw a lot of misinformation and hyperbole and outright propaganda and lies about these, these grapes because they were trying to get them out of French vineyards.
[00:16:10] It's important to realize that Ban the EU just lifted the ban on hybrids in Appalachian wine in 2021. So it's kind of not surprising that some of these prejudices and misinformation still persist today. We're not too far away from that. I.
[00:16:26] Craig Macmillan: And, and why was the band lifted? Do you know?
[00:16:30] Adam Huss: That's a great question. It's, it was lifted for ecological reasons because they're realizing these are really important to dealing with climate change. This is like, if you want a sustainable industry, you need to be able to adapt. When you're inside this, this world of vinifira, what I call the vinifira culture, which is, you know, very centered on Vera.
[00:16:50] You don't realize how strange it is. You know, it's kind of like growing up with a, a weird family, you know? It's all you know, so you don't know how strange they are until you start seeing the rest of the world. But to think that, you know, 50 years ago we just decided that maybe like. 10 grapes were the pinnacle of viticultural achievement for all time, and we've basically invested all of our energies into, you know, propagating those around the planet and preserving them at all costs is kind of strange when you think about the whole history of agriculture.
[00:17:20] And it's really only possible because of cheep fossil fuels and the novel chemistry that we. Have put into our systems. And so if you take those out, if you start thinking ecologically about how do you develop a wine system, I mean the question is like, does it make sense when farming in a world where the only constant is change and we just live in a dynamic world, does it make sense to try to do everything you can to prevent change?
[00:17:45] Like is prevention of change like a good strategy? And so I think, you know, diversity and adaptation are. What have always worked, you know, historically through agriculture, and that's kind of the future. I mean, in a real sense, vinifera culture is the past and hybrids are the future. If we want to have a future, there's my enthusiastic,
[00:18:09] Craig Macmillan: Well, I'd like you to expand a little bit more on that. 'cause we we have a group of hybrids that are well known or are commonly used. I've, I've been hearing about Marquette a lot more, um, As having a lot of potential WW. What does that future potentially look like and what are some things that would have to happen for that potential to be realized?
[00:18:31] Adam Huss: So we have invested, you know, millions of dollars in time and energy and even policy into developing, , the chemicals that we now use to support our, viticulture. And to make it possible in places like Virginia, where, you know, they're developing a whole wine industry there around vinifira in a climate that is, you know, like I said, that was the climate that like Thomas Jefferson failed for and everyone else for hundreds of years failed to grow it there.
[00:18:59] If we invested that same amount of time and energy and money into breeding programs and into. Research for the kinds of things that we're now discovering, like DNA markers so that we can have DNA marker assisted breeding. So you're, you're speeding up the breeding process by sometimes two, three years.
[00:19:19] Which is, which is significant in a process that can take, you know, 10 to 20 years that any, any little bit helps. So that kinda stuff and just more of it, more private breeders, making it more valuable for private breeders. I always think it's really interesting that like billionaires would rather just do another sort of like cult.
[00:19:39] Ego, Napa cab investment, you know, rather than like breed their own personal variety of grape that nobody else could have. I mean, I'm not recommending that, but like, to me that seems really interesting as an idea. You could just have your own proprietary grape variety if you wanted to, you know, but nobody's thinking that way.
[00:19:58] But I would say breeding, putting our, our time and energy into breeding not new varieties is, . Really important and, and working with the ones that are already there, I mean. The only reason California's so such strangers to them is because it's so easy to grow here. You know, we're relatively speaking and I get that.
[00:20:15] I mean, you know, people like what they like and, and change is hard and market conditions are what they are. But I think we're at a point where. Marking conditions are changed. Like I said, you know, this young couple I was just talking to don't, don't have never even heard the word foxy. And so I think there's a lot more openness to just what's in the glass. Now.
[00:20:35] Craig Macmillan: So some. Of it's messaging. If we can have wines that people can taste and do it in a context that's new to them. So there may be an opportunity here with newer wine drinkers or younger wine drinkers potentially, is what it sounds like to me.
[00:20:48] Adam Huss: Yeah, and I. I mean, some of this is also realizing all the different ways that hybrids are already being used and could be used. Like, you know, we know you mentioned Pierce's disease. Pierce's disease is this disease that's endemic to California and is heading north. I mean, it's really on the threshold of all of the major wine regions of, of California.
[00:21:11] And the only ways . To stop it without hybrids, without resistant hybrids are, are pretty intense. You know, it's like eliminating habitat through, , basically creating a sterile medium of your vineyard and then spraying with insecticides, you know some, sometimes pretty intense insecticides.
[00:21:29] The alternative though is there are now multiple varieties of grapes that are. Resistant to them that are tolerant to it so they, they can carry the bacteria, but it won't affect the health of the vine. Those were bred, some of them here, right here in California at uc Davis. And yet if you go to the University of California Agricultural Network Resources page that, you know, kind of handles all the IPM for California, sort of like the resource.
[00:21:56] And if you read about Pierce's disease, it makes zero mention of using tolerant. Varieties as a management strategy. And it makes no mention that there are even are tolerant varieties to Pierce's disease as a management strategy. So just that kind of stuff is the shift that has to happen. 'cause it just shows how vinifera centric our entire industry is, like from the top down, even when there are these great strategies that you can use and start implementing to combat these things, ecologically versus chemically.
[00:22:25] They're not there, you know, they're not being mentioned. So just little things like that would go a long way. Also, you know, I mean, one of my fun little facts is like. There are already hybrids being used significantly, like probably everybody on who's listening to this has, if you've bought a bottle of wine at a grocery store that was under 20 bucks, you've probably drunk hybrids because 10,000 acres of ruby red is grown in California to make mega purple and mega purples. Pretty much in every, like, you know, mass produced under $20 bottle of wine and it's got esra, Vitus, esra in it. So you've probably been drinking hybrids and not even known about it.
[00:23:04] In terms of these Andy Walker hybrids, I do have a little that which were bred for Pierce's disease resistance. I also have kind of a fun story in that I, as you know, like we've, we've both talked to Adam Tolmach, who replanted a whole block that he lost to Pierce's disease with these hybrid varieties, and these are designed specifically to retain a lot of vinifira characteristics. They're like 97% back crossed to be. vinifira and 3% with Vitus, Arizona to have that Pierce's disease resistant specifically. So they don't have a lot of the other benefits that like a higher percentage of North American native varieties would have. Like they, they're still susceptible to powdery mildew and other mildew pretty, pretty intensely,
[00:23:44] but just in terms of flavor for anybody who's out there. So I've, I've barrel tasted with Adam. Tasted each of those varieties individually out a barrel. And then we went to his tasting room and tried all of his wines and, and got to, and then he, instead of keeping, he has two red hybrid varieties, two white hybrid varieties, and he blends them and makes a, you know, a, a red blend and a white blend that he calls a state red and state white.
[00:24:09] And we went to his tasting room and he makes beautiful wine. All of his wines are great, but no joke. Everybody in my party. Preferred the hybrids to like all of his pinots or raw chardonnay, I mean, I have no idea why. I mean, but, and that's just anecdotal, obviously nothing scientific, but the very least I can say the, the flavors are exciting and delicious.
[00:24:29] Right.
[00:24:30] Craig Macmillan: If you can get them in front of the consumer,
[00:24:33] Adam Huss: Yeah.
[00:24:33] Craig Macmillan: the key. That's really the key.
[00:24:35] Adam Huss: Right, right,
[00:24:36] Craig Macmillan: And for, your own wine making. Are you making wine from hybrids for yourself?
[00:24:40] Adam Huss: Not yet just 'cause there are, there just aren't any in California very much, you know, I mean, it's like little patches here and little patches there. And the people that have them are using them for themself, you know, for their own growing. They've grown them specifically you know, Camus has planted some of these Andy Walker hybrids along their riparian corridors to prevent Pierce's disease.
[00:24:58] Those varieties specifically are being used. I don't know if they're blending those in. With like their cab or whatever. I honestly think they could, but I don't know if they are. They're probably, I dunno what they're doing with them, but I do grow them here in Los Angeles and I'm, but they're, you know, it's like I'm trying out a bunch of different things, partly just to see how they do, because, you know, they haven't been grown here.
[00:25:21] They were developed for colder, wetter climates and so, you know what, how will they grow here in Los Angeles? There's a lot of unanswered questions for some of these.
[00:25:30] Craig Macmillan: You and I were chatting before the interview and you have a, a new project that you're very. Excited about tell us a little bit about that, because I thought that was pretty cool.
[00:25:39] Adam Huss: Yeah. Thanks. So this past summer, my wife and I finalized the acquisition of this farm in upstate New York that I'm going to develop into a. Married Vine Vida Forestry Demonstration and Research Project. And, and married vines, essentially vines growing with living trees.
[00:26:02] But the best way to think about it is if you know the three Sisters of Agriculture, the corn, beans and squash idea, where you plant these. This guild of, of a Polyculture guild, and they have these symbiotic stacking benefits and productivity. This is what a married vine polyculture is for perennial agriculture. And so I don't just see it as vine and tree, but also vine and tree, and then a ground cover and or small shrubs or things like that that are also perennials planted in a guild together to create these stacking benefits and productivity.
[00:26:35] Multiple productivity layers as well as making it a grable system because the vines will be up in trees and and we're gonna call it the Beyond Organic Wine Forest Farm.
[00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: So gimme some more detail on this. So like, what are the other plants that are in the forest and how are the vines, what's the spacing like? How, how many trees per vine or vine per tree?
[00:27:01] How is the vine trellis? Um, I just, I'm really curious about this idea because this goes back to very, very ancient times.
[00:27:09] Adam Huss: Yes. Yeah, yeah,
[00:27:09] Craig Macmillan: Uh, that I've read about. I've never seen evidence of it, but I have been told that going back to like Roman times, they would plant grapevines, interplant with things like olives,
[00:27:18] Adam Huss: yeah, yeah. Yeah. And
[00:27:20] Craig Macmillan: use the olive as a trails.
[00:27:22] I mean, is this the, is this the same kind of concept?
[00:27:24] Adam Huss: You can see some of this still in Italy. So even pre roam the Etruscan times is what the oldest versions of this that are still visible in Campania, just north of Napoli, I think is the largest married vine system that is still in production. And I think it's about, it might be about 34 hectares of this variety where they have elm trees. That are really tall, full sized elm trees.
[00:27:51] And then between them they sort of have wires or ropes between the trees and the vines grow up like up 15 meters. Like it's crazy. Like the guys that harvest this, they have like specially designed ladders that are built for their stance so that they can like lock into these 18 meter ladders and be up there like with a little pulley and a bucket, and they're lowering grapes down from way up in the end.
[00:28:14] And you get. So many cool things about that, you know, the, the ripeness and the PHS of the grapes change, the higher you go up in that system. , the thinking is they might have even been used to like. Just inhibit invading armies because , it's like a wall of vines and trees that create like almost a perimeter thing.
[00:28:33] That that's also how they're being used in Portugal, they are sort of like if you have a little parcel of land, you use trees and vines to create like a living fence keep your domestic animals inside. And animals that might eat them outside and protect, you know, from theft and things like that.
[00:28:51] Keep all your crops in a little clo, like a little controlled area. There are old systems where. They're more like feto systems where they were using maple trees and just pollarding them at, at about head height. And every year, every year or two, they would come in and clip off all the new growth and feed it to the livestock.
[00:29:10] And meanwhile, the vines were festooned between the, the maple trees is like, you know, just like a garland of, of grapevine. So there's a lot of different things. And what I wanna do is trial several of them. One of the most. Interesting ones that I just saw in whales uses living willows, where you literally just stick a willow slip in the ground, bend it over to the next one that's about a meter and a half away and attach it.
[00:29:35] And so you have these arched willow branches that grow once you stick 'em in the ground. They start growing roots and they create like a head high trellis, like a elevated trellis system, and you plant vines in them. And, and it literally looks just like. Like a row of grapevines that you would find here, except the, the trellis is alive and there's no wires and, and you prune the tree when you prune the vine in the winter, you know?
[00:29:58] And Willow, I, I don't know if you know, but the, the other interesting thing about that is like willow has been used historically that the salicylic acid is known. Obviously that's aspirin and stuff like that. That's where we get, you know, one of our oldest like pain relievers and things like that.
[00:30:12] But. It's used in biodynamic preps as well as an antifungal. And so there's some thought that like this system could be really beneficial to the vines growing with those. Specifically for that, like for antifungal properties or just creating a, you know, showering the vines with this, this salicylic acid thing that will help them grow and have health throughout the season without, with, again, reduced need for sprays of anything.
[00:30:37] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, and that was why I brought it up is because there's the idea of working with the natural ecology of what's in the germ plasm of native plants. I. Mixing with an import plant.
[00:30:51] And then there's the other way of looking at it and saying, well, what, what about recreating the conditions under which this plant that has evolved in the first place? And I, I just think that there's really fascinating concept. It's really intriguing to me.
[00:31:05] yeah. And there's so many different ways you could do it, and that's why it's interested in what you're planning on doing, because there's obviously a lot of ways you could do it.
[00:31:11] Adam Huss: Yeah, I wanna experiment with several. Like you said, the, the soil benefits are incredible potentials. And then when you're also thinking about what do I do besides just vines and trees, and I mean, the other thing is like. How does it make the wine taste? Like if you plant a vine with an apple tree or a, a black locust tree, or a honey locust tree, or a, or a mulberry tree, like, does, is the vine happier with one of those trees?
[00:31:35] You know what I mean? Does it, does it, you know, and if it is, does that make the wine taste better at the end of the day? All these are really fun questions for me. That's why I'm really excited to do it. But also like what are the benefits in terms of, you know, the health of the vine, the health of the tree?
[00:31:50] Do they are, is there symbiotic elements? It seems like they would, I, I think a lot about what kind of mycorrhizal connections and associations the trees have, because we vines have our Arbuscular connections. And so if you plant them with a tree that has similar connections, they might actually have a symbiotic benefit.
[00:32:07] They might increase that soil network even further. And then if you're planting shrubs like blueberries or flowers, you know, perennial flowers or Forbes and things like that, that could either be grazed or could be gathered or could be another crop even for you, or it could be a protective thing.
[00:32:22] There are things like indigo that you might plant because. Deer don't like it. So you might want that growing around the base of your vine tree thing while it's young, because it will prevent the deer from grazing down your baby vines and trees, you know? And so there's just a, a myriad ways of thinking about these guilds that you can do.
[00:32:39] Obviously these are, I. Yeah, they're, they're different. If I was doing it in California, if I was in California, I would be thinking more about olives and pomegranates and figs and things like that, you know, like there's a lot less water for growing trees here, so depending on where you are, unless you're on the coast.
[00:32:55] Craig Macmillan: Are you planning on using hybrids in your project?
[00:32:59] Adam Huss: Yeah. I don't know how I would do it any other way. Yeah, it's, definitely a climate that. If you try to grow ra, like you're just asking for trouble. And, and just, you know, because of my approach is so ecological, like I will attempt to be as minimal inputs as possible is the other way I look at it.
[00:33:20] You know, try to just imitate what's happening around to, to see what that landscape wants to do and then how it. Maintains its health and resilience and maybe, and, and I mean, my, my ideal is to spray not at all. But you know, with not a dogma about that. If I see an issue or if I think like I'm building up these pathogen loads in the vineyard, maybe I'll spray once a year, even if they seem like they're doing okay.
[00:33:47] You know, I'm not like dogmatic about nose spray, but I, it's a, it's a fun ideal to reach for. And I, you know, I think potentially with. Some of the symbiotic benefits of these systems that could be achievable with with the right hybrids. You know, I mean, again, I don't wanna generalize about hybrids because you have the Andy Walker hybrids on the one end, which you have to treat just like vinifira in terms of the spray program.
[00:34:10] And then on the other hand, you have something like Petite Pearl or Norton, which is like in many cases is almost like a bulletproof. Grape, you know, and in California specifically, it would be like insanely. And then you have things right down the middle. Things like tranet that you know, is basically like, I could blind taste you on Tranet and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and gewurztraminer .
[00:34:31] But it's more cold, hearty, it has a little more disease resistance. Gives you a just a little bit, a little bit more of a benefit while still getting flavors that are familiar to you. If you like those flavors.
[00:34:43] Craig Macmillan: Is there one thing that you would tell growers on this topic? One takeaway.
[00:34:48] Adam Huss: Great question. I think give hybrids the same allowance that you give Vinifera. I. We all know there's a huge diversity of Vin Nira from Petite Ough to Riesling. And not everyone is right for every wine drinker and not all of them per perform the same in the vineyard. And, and you know, and we tolerate a lot of.
[00:35:12] Frailty and a lot of feebleness in our veneer vines. We, we do a lot of care. We do a lot of like, you know, handholding for our veneer vines when necessary. If we extended the same courtesy to hybrids in terms of understanding and willingness to work with them. I think like that would just go a really long way too.
[00:35:33] And I think we'd be surprised to find , they're a lot less handholding than, than Venire generally speaking. I. But also just try some. I think a lot of the prejudice comes from just not being exposed to them right now. You know, if you, if you think, if you're thinking negative thoughts about hybrids, get out there and drink some, you probably just haven't had enough yet.
[00:35:51] And if you don't like the first one, you know, how many bad Cabernets have you had? I mean, if, if I had stopped drinking vinifira, I
[00:35:59] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. If I judged every wine by the first wine that I tasted, that's probably not a very,
[00:36:06] Adam Huss: right.
[00:36:07] Craig Macmillan: good education there,
[00:36:08] Adam Huss: Prevented me from exploring further, I would've missed out on some of the more profound taste experiences of my life if I'd let that, you know, guide my, you know, my thinking about it. So yeah, I think it's like anything with prejudice, once you get beyond it, it kind of, you see how silly it is, man.
[00:36:25] It's, it's like so freeing and, and there's a whole world to explore out there. And like I said, I really think they're the future. Like if we wanna have a future, . We can only cling to the past for so long until it just becomes untenable.
[00:36:38] Craig Macmillan: Right. Where can people find out more about you?
[00:36:42] Adam Huss: So beyondorganicwine.com is the, the website for me. The email associate with that is connect@organicwinepodcast.com.
[00:36:53] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today has been Adam Huss. He is the host of the Beyond Organic Podcast and is the co-owner of Centralas Wines in Los Angeles.
[00:37:01] Thank you so much. This has been a really fascinating conversation and I'd love to connect with you at some point, talk more about. Out this, thanks for being on the podcast
[00:37:08] Adam Huss: Thank you so much, Craig. Appreciate it.
[00:37:13] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by VineQuest. A Viticultural consulting firm based in Paso Robles, California, offering expert services in sustainable farming, vineyard development, and pest management. With over 30 years of experience, they provide tailored solutions to enhance vineyard productivity and sustainability for wineries and agribusinesses across California.
[00:37:38] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Adam. His wine, brand, Centralis plus sustainable wine growing podcast episodes on this topic, 135 Cold hardiness of grapes 217. Combating climate chaos with adaptive wine, grape varieties, and 227. Andy Walker's Pierce's Disease resistant grapes are a success at Ojai Vineyard.
[00:38:04] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org.
[00:38:19] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team.
Nearly perfect transcription by Descript
[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Training season is fast approaching. It's time to get your hospitality staff prepared to welcome a range of guests from experienced enthusiasts to first timers.
[00:00:10] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday. With SIP Certified. We know that your customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you show your dedication to sustainable wine growing.
[00:00:29] Most people rarely consider the complex agricultural processes behind their favorite products. Use this opportunity to offer something truly unique insight into what makes your wine sustainable.
[00:00:42] Start by covering the basics of what sustainability is while you get to know your guest. Are they familiar with agriculture? Do they know that there is a relationship between the farm and the larger ecosystem?
[00:00:53] Sustainability means meeting the needs of today while ensuring that future generations successfully meet theirs. We do this by caring for the three Ps. People, planet, and prosperity
[00:01:06] people includes community involvement, charitable donations, continuing education and safety programs.
[00:01:12] Planet includes habitat conservation plans, integrated pest management, cover crops, and responsible irrigation
[00:01:20] prosperity includes sales and marketing plans, budgets, succession plans, and inventory and production records.
[00:01:27] If you're SIP certified, you could explain why your brand is a part of a third party program. Specifically, SIP certified is a certification for sustainable wine growers and winemakers. It uses independent third party auditors to verify the brand's practices and records to ensure that they're meeting strict standards.
[00:01:47] Now it's time to show how sustainability is specifically meaningful to your brand. This will help your guests understand what issues are important to you and what you're doing about them.
[00:01:57] Follow these three simple steps.
[00:01:59] One, download the sustainable story worksheet linked in the show notes.
[00:02:04] Two, talk with your vineyard manager, winemaker or general manager to get an example of each of the seven values, which include social responsibility. Water management, safe pest management, energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving.
[00:02:20] For example, attracting gopher hunting barn owls with barn owl boxes in the vineyard is a great example of safe pest management. And three, pick one value to focus on each month to share a fun story with your guests
[00:02:35] if you want to get inspired. We've been collecting sustainable stories from our SIP certified members for the last three years. You can find all of those linked in the show notes.
[00:02:45] And if you want to go deeper than the sustainable story worksheet, we have a great free online course that will help you learn what sustainability means in the wine industry and how to tell your own unique sustainable story.
[00:02:58] Until next time. This is sustainable wine growing with the Vineyard team.
Meet your vineyard night-shift rodent patrol —barn owls. Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care, shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle, nesting habits, and how to properly install nest boxes (hint: ventilation and road direction matter!). Discover how you can encourage barn owls to thrive on your land—plus, hear how these owls even foster orphaned chicks.
Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.
Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.
[00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: Meet your vineyard, night shift Rodent patrol - barn owls. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director
[00:00:18] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with longtime SIP Certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP Certified winery. Speaks with Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care.
[00:00:34] Bob shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle nesting habitats, and how to properly install nest boxes, hint, ventilation, and road direction matter.
[00:00:50] Discover how you could encourage barn owls to thrive on your land plus. Here how these owls even foster orphaned chicks.
[00:00:58] If you love this topic and want to learn even more about barn owls, you won't want to miss the June 6th, 2025 tailgate on bird abatement and managing wildlife in the vineyard.
[00:01:09] Hosted at Jackson Family Wines Bar M Vineyard in Los Alamos, California. We'll see a live falconry demonstration and learn the latest barn owl research from California Polytechnic State University, including how changes in vineyard habitat affect foraging behavior. To register, just go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes.
[00:01:33] Now, let's listen in.
[00:01:38] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Bob Peak. He is a volunteer with Pacific Wildlife care in SLO County, California. And today we're gonna talk about barn owls. Thanks for being on the podcast, Bob.
[00:01:48] Bob Peak: Thank you very much Craig, and I want to thank you and the Niner Wine Estates for this invitation. I think that this going to be very informative and quite fascinating actually.
[00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I'll give you a little bit of background on that. I met Bob, when he came out to Niner Wine estates, looking for clutches, looking for looking for outlets, and we learned all kinds of fascinating things. And I was like, I have got to talk to this guy on the podcast 'cause there's so much information and interesting things about barn owls that I didn't know, until a couple months ago.
[00:02:23] But why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about, pacific wildlife Care.
[00:02:28] Bob Peak: Yes. Pacific Wildlife Care was started 41 years ago here in the county by home rehabbers. There was no facility. People did their work in their specialty right out of their home, whether it was raccoons or opossums. We people tended to have a different skill that they were good at, and it started with very humble beginnings.
[00:02:51] We finally reached a point where we could afford a facility and we went and occupied part of the PG&E power plant there in Morrow Bay. We are right next door to the Marine Mammal Center, if anyone knows where that is, and we are right now in the process of having to move as they are, also as there are plans coming up for the property.
[00:03:17] We currently have had some donors step up and provide us with not only the 10 acres of land on Buckley Road in San Luis Obispo, but we are also very quickly in the process of building a brand new facility out there.
[00:03:35] Craig Macmillan: That is really great. There's definitely a need for this. How did you personally become involved in wildlife rehabilitation?
[00:03:43] Bob Peak: I needed something to do after I retired and I literally, I saw an ad in the Tribune, a local paper that said that they were looking for volunteers and I had had some experience with the birds of prey as a a child. I have a Native American background and they're a very important part of our culture.
[00:04:04] we, we learned about them early on and the opportunity to work around people that were like-minded as far as with the animals in San Luis Bipo County was rather exciting.
[00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: And so let's move on. Talk about barn owls specifically. Why is it important to encourage and protect barn owls?
[00:04:24] Bob Peak: Ooh, that's a good question. barn owls are a species that really keep things in check. They're the balance to something that could get outta control very quickly. and I think we all see that, whether it's at our houses or at the wineries. And that's these, the rodents and other pests. That not only are harmful to us but they're harmful to our crops and even potential danger to us as well.
[00:04:56] They are voracious eaters. They consume anywhere between six to eight voles or gophers a night. And that's each when a parent is feeding the young. That number can go up by times four. You could see that you might be 30 vols taken a night. So they do a tremendous job for the environment. And again, they, they're more of a checks and balances.
[00:05:29] I think too that the more barn owls that you have in an area it means that you're basically protected. It's one of those things too where people also think the same way with the, the skunks or opossums and raccoons. They can be nuisances at times, but they serve a very good purpose in eliminating all kinds of pests, insects, and things that you don't want.
[00:05:56] Craig Macmillan: What is the lifecycle of a barn owl?
[00:06:00] Bob Peak: . I wrote a couple of notes down on this. The lifecycle is rather short for barn owl. The, they're cavity nesters, what happens is the, the barn owl parents make for life, they're monogamous. So they'll stick around they'll find a cavity barn or something that a box where they'll head in and lay anywhere between one and eight eggs. The incubation period is rather quick.
[00:06:38] The breeding season is basically between late January and February for about six to eight weeks. , about a week and a half before the female laser eggs, she's nest bound. She's too heavy to fly. She can't even get out of the box.
[00:06:53] Another thing that she does at that same time is she picks a little brood patch. On her belly to where she can remove those feathers. And once the young born, 'cause they have no feathers, she will put them right next to that skin of hers for the warmth that they're gonna need.
[00:07:15] Incubation is 29 to about 34 days. Again, they could lay between one and eight eggs. And they can do that three times a year. They might just have one clutch of eight. They could have two or maybe even three if the conditions are right.
[00:07:33] She'll turn these eggs every so many minutes and then it takes, oh, I would say, you know, like 29 to 34 days,
[00:07:44] and then the chick to get out from the shell. The have this little hook on the end of their bill. It's an egg tooth that's on the end of their, bill. And then that will actually break the egg open and it does take a while for, it takes 12 to 36 hours for 'em to get out of that eggshell. Four to seven.
[00:08:08] It'll be about four months before they'll see another. But brood, because once they leave, then they'll lay more eggs.
[00:08:17] The four months will pass from the egg being laid to the young, gaining independence. That's it. And they pretty much don't receive much training from their parents. It's, they get out of the box and then they're on their own. Where a great horned owl will spend up to a year or more, even longer with their parents.
[00:08:37] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.
[00:08:39] Bob Peak: A freshly hatched barnells Pink mentioned that know they hatch in sequence of the way that they were laid.
[00:08:46] Craig Macmillan: Oh.
[00:08:46] Bob Peak: The oldest could be three weeks old when the youngest hatches. So there is a. A challenge for food with that young one because that big one's gonna be going after it. So that's right off the bat. You know, you got some you know, some things working against you.
[00:09:03] The downey Plumage starts to show up about three weeks later. They tend to clutch together and for that warmth till then. And then the female again, is taking the food brought by the male. The male is doing all the hunting. And the male will bring it in. The female will grab that food and rip it apart and feed it individually to each of the babies. Very small pieces
[00:09:31] about the time they're two weeks old, they can stand on their own and they can actually eat whole prey. And now that's something to see on itself, to watch these little critters take a vole or a small mouse and swallow that you think they're gonna choke. It's quite. For a parent, you know, you're worried, you know
[00:09:53] once the, the youngest chick can feed itself, then mom will leave the nest for hunting too. No longer needed to rip food. And then it takes both parents to feed those animals. And because each of the young ones are gonna need three or more mice themselves. On top of mom and dad eating each needing 8, 6, 7, or eight themselves.
[00:10:23] Average time to fledge is about nine weeks. Fledgling means they basically are fully feathered and ready to take off to see the world. They can test their wings sometimes, but to do so a lot of times there's no perch. There's just basically the entry and exit hole. That's why we find 'em so many times on the ground. They're curious. They get close to that or sometimes they can get pushed out again. Most of the time when we receive them, it's because they've fallen out of a nest.
[00:10:58] , if they are on the ground, they're pretty much doomed because. There's raccoons in your area, Craig. You've got Bobcat, you've got mountain lions, coyotes. We're trying to get them back into that box as soon as we can.
[00:11:13] Fledglings will continue to be fed by the parents for about three months, maybe even a little longer. By. Oh, I would say November. The fledglings will have dispersed if they were laid in the summer and they found a territory settled into a new Nest site. But life is hard for the new ones. It's true of owls and it's true of the raptors, hawks, eagles and things. The survival rate is low. The survival rates can average 37 to 65%.
[00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.
[00:11:54] Bob Peak: But the odds improve greatly. If they make it past their first year, they gotta get the skills down. Many young barnells starve to death. Typically, they'll live only another three or four, three years through typical lifespan.
[00:12:09] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.
[00:12:10] Bob Peak: The barn owls do not typically hunt close to their nest box. They like to leave, they like to go to open fields where they can fly low. Listening for rodents. A lot of times, again, we think of them as using their sight, but they have incredible hearing as well. Just look at those ears on a great horn owl.
[00:12:31] The one of the reasons why they get into trouble as well, when they're going close to the ground or just flying after something, they're looking down and they're not looking ahead. That's why they could easily run into the side of a truck. On a side, you know, a highway and you see them very frequently on the side of the road. 'cause that's just what they did. They ran right into the side of it. They can run into power poles, they run into anything that's there in front of them they can run into. So it's, it can be dangerous. About 80% of fatalities are from traffic casualties, 80%. It is really important to keep your nest boxes away from the road and the highway and the entrance hole. Of course, we talked about this, Craig is always facing east and never facing a busy road.
[00:13:27] Would you like me to talk about the nest box that we have come to?
[00:13:32] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. First of all though, i, you know, you mentioned, mice and voles most of vineyards are interested in gophers. How important are gophers to their diet?
[00:13:43] Bob Peak: Oh, extremely. They're, they're just like a vole. Very similar. They're like the, the same thing. They love gophers. I think that you'll find it in in vineyards like yours where you take a more natural approach to things. You're letting much Mother Nature do this work. And the gophers are very delicious for these barn owls they're meaty usually. The mice can be a little smaller, it's very good. That's why they prefer a gopher or a vol.
[00:14:18] I know that some of the vineyards around also will spray and we talked about this you know, using no, , insecticides and things like that where yours is a, you know, a kind of a, a free zone and when you're spraying on the ground and things chemicals. Those are picked up by the rodents and things of that nature and transferred to the barn owl. So, another reason to take your approach to vineyard management. Very important step. It's, it keeps everything safe.
[00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: Let's talk about barn owl nesting boxes now. You mentioned, you mentioned a couple of things. You said nightmare road. The opening facing east is preferable. Will they not nest if the opening is facing north or west or south?
[00:15:08] Bob Peak: They will, but you're gonna expose them to wind and air and possibly rain that will you know, get in there. That's typical. Most of our, our, our weather fronts are coming from west to east, so it gives them a little added protection
[00:15:26] also to that sun coming up in the morning. It gives some warmth into the box. Yeah, but those are, those are the, the real key points.
[00:15:35] Another one too, craig, is to make sure that the box is well ventilated. It has to have ventilation holes throughout the box. It's best to have 'em on the floor so any liquid that does get in there can go through as well as on the side, so you can get a breeze through there.
[00:15:55] Size also is very important. If you can think about having eight of those little barn outlets with two parents in there, you need a big box and for them to really thrive.
[00:16:10] The larger the box, the better. The I've seen some boxes that are so small that it just, it gives the owl outlets less of a chance because they feel that they have to fight to survive a little more when there's not enough space. And I've heard of other owletes pushing other owletes out of the box just to increase their chances of survival. You know, it's kind of one of those survival of the fittest things. So the more room they have, the better it is for everyone.
[00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How big is appropriate?
[00:16:49] Bob Peak: I would say probably three feet by two feet, to three feet, and probably two to three feet tall.
[00:16:58] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. That's a lot bigger than most of the boxes. I see. Yeah.
[00:17:01] Bob Peak: They are, they're much bigger. We've looked at a lot of other facilities that rescue barn owls.
[00:17:08] We've even gone over to England. They have a a, a program with their owls as well. They had one of the more interesting boxes. it had on the outside a platform. Purchase basically. So these young ones can get out there and see the world, test their wings and then get right back inside if they need to.
[00:17:29] Much bigger boxes, much heavier to work with. Again, that was the thing that we found. We, it was just a heavy box, but it was exceptional. But it was big. And they need to be cleaned. So any box that's built needs to have an access port to where you can get into it every couple years and clean out the droppings which need to be done very carefully, because again, as you know, some animal droppings can cause us harm. So you wanna make sure you wear a mask.
[00:18:01] Craig Macmillan: Right.
[00:18:02] Bob Peak: Again there's all kinds of issues and that, or, discussions about having a perch on the outside or ledge on the outside of that box.
[00:18:12] It's nice because they can get out there, have a chance of getting out and getting right back in and not falling to the ground. That perch also is a chance for a great horned owl to come over and get itself on there as well, or on any of the little. Ledges that you built.
[00:18:32] The key to all of this is the size of that entry hole. That entry hole cannot be bigger than about five and a half inches, really, five to five and a half inches any bigger than that. You're gonna a, a great horned l be able to get in and then, and it's just, it's not good.
[00:18:50] Craig Macmillan: Right. So the, horned owl is a predator
[00:18:53] my. It is, you wouldn't think, you know, owl to owl stuff like that. But yeah, it is. They are probably one of the more other than traffic fatalities, it's the, great horned owl
[00:19:06] They are very aggressive. They know where these things live. They're very smart. The great horned owl, and again. If you get a young one out on a perch and it's there, it's, it could be could be done.
[00:19:20] I have seen, 'cause I've been to a lot of vineyards in the area and I've seen a lot of large holes in these boxes and I actually went into one and it, it was occupied by great horned owl. it laid eggs in the box.
[00:19:38] Oh wow.
[00:19:39] Bob Peak: So. Well that is something too about owls. Is they don't make nests.
[00:19:45] , the great horned owl will and barn owl will find a cavity. The great horn owl's, not a cavity nester, but they'll take an old hawks nest or eagle nest or something and make it their own. And then they tend to get into trouble because they're usually using a nest that isn't in that good of a shape.
[00:20:04] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. What are some other things about sighting of boxes? We, we know not close to a road. We know the direction of the, the, of the opening. What are some things that will encourage the bar nows to nest there based on their other behavior?
[00:20:19] Bob Peak: I, I think that you just have, to know, about approximately how many acres you have and you want to place a box about every five acres. You can actually have more boxes depending on how much food you have for them, but anywhere between five to 10 acres per box. Again, with the parameters of facing these, being the correct size and everything. So if you have a 50 acre property, you're looking at anywhere between oh five to 10 boxes on that property.
[00:20:54] Craig Macmillan: And something that. I had heard was that it's good to have them near a tree. So that they have someplace that they can land right away when they come out of the box. Is that true?
[00:21:05] Bob Peak: Yeah. I, we, we've experimented with that Absolutely. Again that's a more natural setting for them where they would be in the the hollow of a tree and come out and possibly be on a branch. Absolutely. I like that. I like that better than being on a pole.
[00:21:24] As long as you still have access to the clean out and, and isn't too, you know, dangerous for someone to get up there. Yeah. I like that better than being on a pole without a
[00:21:34] Craig Macmillan: Well actually having it in a tree.
[00:21:37] Bob Peak: yes,
[00:21:37] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Because what I had been told was that you'd want to have one because of the horn dial. You have one on a pole, but have it close to a tree where they can just shoot out and land on a branch and look around and see if there's a threat.
[00:21:51] But you say, actually put it in the tree
[00:21:55] Bob Peak: it in the tree.
[00:21:56] Craig Macmillan: fascinating. That's really interesting.
[00:21:58] The way that I met you is you were looking. For clutches to, how should we say, transplant? Some some outlets that, That you folks had. And I learned that barn owls are one of the few raptors That will actually foster outlets from other clutches. That's true.
[00:22:18] Bob Peak: That that is correct, Craig. Very good. Good research. Yes. We found that the barn owls were exceptional foster parents, which really gives those guys a chance to make it.
[00:22:31] We found out that like you mentioned, the hawks and others just really don't do it. In fact, it would be dangerous to even attempt in some of the species.
[00:22:41] One of our, original founders of Pacific Wildlife Care, Kelly was very successful in well all. Many of the things that she does for Pacific Wildlife Care, but she was able to get a red shoulder, a female hawk, to foster young red shoulder hawks for many, many, many years, and gave many of those a chance that wouldn't have a chance. The, the quite amazing I lost my train of thought.
[00:23:13] Craig Macmillan: Well, we were talking about fostering and what I had learned from you was you were looking at the clutch that we had at niner, and apparently you, you need to match. The foster bird to the family in terms of its age and development, is that correct.
[00:23:32] Bob Peak: That that is correct. Do you want to throw that young one in where there's other young and where there aren't adolescents? I. To where it's gonna have a chance to get some food.
[00:23:43] Another thing that one of the other parameters for finding a foster box, you know, a barnell box is The number in there. If there's already five in there, it would be hard for me to put a one or possibly two in there and put that much added stress on the parent. To feed it, and we really can't ensure that that young one's gonna get fed with that many in the box.
[00:24:11] I look for one that has maybe three, two, or three, and that additional one or two outlets is not going to stress the parents and the other young ones. But yes, you, you try to match up with age and size as well.
[00:24:30] Craig Macmillan: You had mentioned that a nesting pair might have multiple clutches during a year and of different sizes, and if I, remember correctly, that has to do with the availability of resources.
[00:24:42] Bob Peak: Yeah, absolutely. Craig. I have found over the years you know, we've the living on the central coast, it's feast and famine with the rain as well.
[00:24:53] And I've seen years we're going around to different wineries. There might be 15 boxes and 12 or 13 or 14 of 'em are occupied. I've also. Gone around different seasons and hit 30 boxes and only two of them were occupied. That's how bad the food situation was.
[00:25:16] Where we get into a pinch with our fostering and the barn owls finding a home for 'em is that we have a lot of farmers and ranchers in the Paso area. And a lot of 'em , get that hay. Some of the best hay you can get is out of Oregon and they bring a lot of that alfalfa and hay down. And when they're in the moving those bales around, after the farmer gets a, a load they discover that there's owl outlets in the hay bales. We receive a lot of outlets through the bales of hay that are shipped to us here. Locally from outta state, and those are the ones that we must have a foster box for because there's no chance of ever reuniting with their original parents.
[00:26:07] Craig Macmillan: How do they end up in there? How do they end up in the hay?
[00:26:10] Bob Peak: Oh, well, , imagine a big, giant stack of hay, 15 feet tall and you know, it sat there for months they'll, you know, there's little spots where they can get in and. It's quite nice for a nest. The they'll also use, palm trees and things of that nature where they can get in there. Yeah, so it's quite common for 'em to get into hay? bales
[00:26:33] Craig Macmillan: What conditions overall, we've talked about a couple of different things, but like in the, in the grand scheme, what are the kinds of conditions that they're gonna be looking for in a, in a nesting box? I.
[00:26:45] Bob Peak: as far as the owls and owls
[00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. So the, So when the nesting pair, is it, does the male find the nest and then attract the female or the other way around?
[00:26:55] Or do they call up some kind of a bird, bird box realtor and go look at different, look at look at different spots and say, I like this one better than that one. Or
[00:27:04] Bob Peak: that's a good question. I think it's more the female you know, they have that nesting instinct. 'cause they're gonna be laying the eggs. And I think that it's just, it's more like any, any female would tell you it's, it's a feel. it. feels good this place. And they don't tend to wander off very far from when, where they were born.
[00:27:28] So this place has felt good to her for a while. A lot of times they'll use the same box over every single year. So that's why, again, it's nice to you know, you could even add boxes depending on, you know, just how many boxes are occupied. You can tell if you, if you've got 15 boxes and 13 or 14 of 'em are occupied, you could probably put more boxes on your property.
[00:27:55] Craig Macmillan: In. Interesting. Yeah, I've seen that myself in vineyards where there'll be a one box located in just a spot. Doesn't seem to be very interesting to me or anything special. And the ground below it is just littered with, with pellets and bones and skulls and it is been going on for years, obviously. And then you go down 50 yards and there's nothing like the box doesn't look like the box has ever been in inhabited.
[00:28:21] Bob Peak: Very true.
[00:28:23] Craig Macmillan: And, it just has to do with kind of where they came from and they like to come back to the same box. I, think that's interesting.
[00:28:30] Bob Peak: And, and it's more of a feel too, again of, of what's around, is there a wire that they have to dodge? Is there a tree? They might have seen a great horn owl over there in that other spot. Yeah. There, there, there's no telling what has, but mainly that nesting instinct drives that female to that box.
[00:28:51] Craig Macmillan: Are there particular conditions you think that are like big, big red flags? You mentioned the presence of barn ows. You mentioned is there a wire? Are there definitely some situations where if I'm gonna place a box I, can look around and kind of go, yeah, it's probably not the best spot
[00:29:05] Bob Peak: I, I think the key is what we, we, we were just talking about with wires, anything that's gonna get them tangled up. Sometimes the I've seen netting in trees. To keep reptiles even out, and you want to avoid placing a box around there. But I think the main thing is again, where most fatalities occur are close to the road. Keep them away from the road. That, that, that, that's really the most important.
[00:29:32] Craig Macmillan: Something that I heard that I don't know is true was that when you, there are two things.
[00:29:38] One, there's the question of whether you should paint the box or not,
[00:29:42] and then two, that they won't come and nest unless the boxes had a chance to weather for a year or so. Are either of those true?
[00:29:52] Bob Peak: , we've talked about that the painting on the outside of the box is fine. Throw up some white on there to you know, kind of keep it from getting too hot, but you don't want to paint the inside. The paint is fumey. The chicks could pick at it with their beaks. So there's all kinds of reasons why you wouldn't want it on the inside, but certainly on the outside. Yes.
[00:30:17] You also want to avoid wood that has particular odors. There can be some wood that is very, very pungent cedars and things like that. And you want to be careful about that. So just a regular pine or regular fir box. And I think there's one that's preferable to another, but I'm not sure what that is. Pine versus fir. I could find out though.
[00:30:44] Craig Macmillan: Well what, what about just basic plywood?
[00:30:47] Bob Peak: Yeah. Well that's made out of a, usually a fir or a pine.
[00:30:51] Craig Macmillan: Hmm.
[00:30:52] Bob Peak: Exactly.
[00:30:54] You can run that whitewash on the outside give it the vent holes. That's really the only only parameters.
[00:31:03] Craig Macmillan: Are there other things that a grower can do to make an nesting box more attractive? I.
[00:31:08] Bob Peak: I, I don't really have a mailbox out front or maybe a, you know, welcome some welcome home
[00:31:15] Craig Macmillan: Just supply some gophers right in front of the box.
[00:31:18] Bob Peak: yeah, maybe some gophers hanging outside now that might do it. No, not really. I think again, it's just a matter of need and a matter of availability.
[00:31:30] Craig Macmillan: Right are there, are there other birds that compete for the nesting habitat, the naturally occurring habitat,
[00:31:39] Bob Peak: As far as,
[00:31:41] Craig Macmillan: I've heard that kestrels can be a competitor.
[00:31:43] Bob Peak: yeah, kestrels are cavity nesters. That's a fact. But I think there's so many more options for them. They're much smaller. I. And there's so many little nooks and crannies and trees and other things like that to where most of the times, , I've not seen in my practice a kestrel in a barn owl box. I have seen great horns in there, but not kestrels.
[00:32:10] Craig Macmillan: Got it. Is there one thing that you would tell a grower? One piece of advice that you would tell a grape grower on this topic?
[00:32:20] Bob Peak: Let nature watch over your property.
[00:32:23] Craig Macmillan: That's good
[00:32:23] Bob Peak: It's been doing it since before you got here, and it'll do it after you've gone. That's how it's always worked. And work with it. And not work against it.
[00:32:38] Craig Macmillan: It makes, makes a lot of sense. Where can people find out more about you in wildlife?
[00:32:44] Bob Peak: Best is to go to our Facebook page or our webpage at pacificwildlifecare.org. Facebook page is great because there's a lot of videos and pictures. If you have children, it's wonderful because we have release videos there.
[00:33:03] They can click on different links once they get to our Facebook page, find out ways to get involved. We're always, again, we're a 501(c)3 nonprofit, so like all of those, we're always looking for two things, people and money. So there's gonna be plenty of opportunity for people to get involved in both ways there on our websites.
[00:33:26] And we have a lot of really, really wonderful things coming up. With this new facility there we're, really quite excited.
[00:33:33] They can also call us at 805-543-WILD. That's really more of a, you know, a rescue line. But if you have general questions and you want to know more, you can please call them and they'll help you out in any way you want.
[00:33:51] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. And actually I, do have one more question just occurred to me. If I do come along and find some outlets, they're out of the box, clearly they're not able to fly or they're not ready to go. , how do I handle that?
[00:34:07] Bob Peak: Excellent. Thank you for bringing that up. That's an excellent question, Craig.
[00:34:11] Best thing to do is to realize that. These young little outlets, as young as they look and as innocent as they look, they've got some talons on them. So you always want to avoid getting your hands near, near their, their their talents.
[00:34:29] But the most important thing with a young one that falls out is to keep them warm. I would place them inside a box, put some bedding down or something in there to let them get snuggled into it. And call Pacific Wildlife Care, our hotline, and we'll have someone out there asap to get this guy give them a chance, but keep them warm and sheltered. For the night. You might have to hold them overnight, but as long as they're warm they'll be fine. And to not feed there's no need to give the animals any food.
[00:35:04] Craig Macmillan: And, we have listeners around the nation and around the world, and I would imagine that there are similar organizations located in every state and the union. And so just do a little research And, find who your local people are. Because I was doing research on this myself preparing for the interview, And, I was really impressed by , the network really of wildlife rehabilitation globally around the world. I think there's actually an international association, if I remember right.
[00:35:30] Bob Peak: Yeah. And thanks for bringing that up. We can't do this by ourselves. That's why we need our volunteers. We need other organizations as you mentioned.
[00:35:41] We find that so many times when we have gotten in a pinch, we have relied on the Ojai raptor center. They have been invaluable as far as us being able to bring them animals that , we weren't able to take care of, but they are.
[00:35:58] So if they can't do it, we can, or vice versa. It's an important network that one way or another we'll get it done. 'cause we have, volunteers that will travel anywhere to take care of these animals.
[00:36:12] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic.
[00:36:14] Well. This was a great conversation. I, like I said, I met you when you were looking for a place to foster some owls, and it was just really, really, fascinating to me, having been around this topic for a very, very long time. the barn owl is kind of the mascot of vineyard team. It's on a lot of our, a lot of our stuff. And so we've been, we've been following this for a long time and I learned more from you in about an hour. Then I had learned in the preceding several decades, let's just put it. that way, several decades. And I, And I, really appreciated that. It was really, really great. And I really appreciate you being a guest.
[00:36:50] Again, our guest today was Bob Peak. He's a volunteer with Civic Wildlife Care in san Luis Obispo County. And yeah, just thanks for being on the podcast. It's a really real pleasure.
[00:37:01] Bob Peak: Thank you Craig. And again, thank you, for this opportunity. Again, please check out Pacific Wildlife Care. you'll love it.
[00:37:08]
[00:37:12] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening.
[00:37:13] Today's podcast was brought to you by Helena Agri Enterprises. Founded in 1957, Helena Agri Enterprises has grown to be one of the nation's foremost agricultural and specialty formulators and distributors In the United States products and services offered include crop protection products. Fertilizer specialized nutrients, seeds, and precision ag services and software. Helena's overriding goal is to help its customers succeed. This is achieved with a unique combination of dedicated and knowledgeable people, unique and useful products, and the latest technical knowledge. The company defines its own success through the success of its customers.
[00:37:56] Make sure you check out the show notes. For links to Pacific Wildlife Care, the barn owl Trust in the United Kingdom, UC Davis' Raptor Center, plus Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast episodes 58 barnells 84 Falconry Bird Abatement, and 118 managing rodent pests and vineyards with integrated pest management.
[00:38:18] If you liked the show, you can do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you could reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org.
[00:38:31] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.
Nearly perfect transcription by Descript
As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how best to integrate them into their farming operations. Nevada Smith, Head of Marketing North America, and Robert Blundell, Research Plant Pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group, highlight the role of biological pesticides and biofertilizers in sustainable winegrowing.
Biological pesticides, derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes, play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality. Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness.
Biofertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses, are another key tool for sustainable viticulture. Nevada and Robert discuss the growing importance of these technologies in improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity.
REGISTER: 5/9/25 Biochar Field Day
117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light
123: What is Happening in Biologicals for Pest Management and Plant Health
266: Soft Pesticide Trial: Powdery Mildew, Downy Mildew, Botrytis, and Sour Rot
Integrated Pest Management (IPM) Principles
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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.
Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.
[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how to best integrate them into their farming operations.
[00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director.
[00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Nevada Smith Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Together, they highlight the role of biological pesticides and bio fertilizers in sustainable wine. Growing
[00:00:49] biological pesticides are derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes. They play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality
[00:01:04] Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness.
[00:01:13] Bio fertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses are another key tool for sustainable viticulture, Nevada and Robert discussed the growing importance of these technologies and improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity.
[00:01:30] If you're gonna be in Paso Robles, California on May 9th, 2025. Join us at Niner Wine Estates for a Biochar Field day. This interactive morning features live demonstrations and expert discussions on the benefits of biochar for soil health and sustainable farming. Learn how to integrate biochar into your farming operations through practical insights and hands-on experiences. Go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes to get registered.
[00:02:00] Now let's listen in.
[00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: My guest today are Nevada Smith. He is Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell, who's a research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Thank you for being on the podcast
[00:02:15] Rob Blundell: Thank you, Craig.
[00:02:16] Nevada Smith: Thank you.
[00:02:18] Craig Macmillan: Today we're gonna be talking about bio pesticides and we might as well start with the the basics. What is a biological pesticide? Robert, why don't you start?
[00:02:26] Rob Blundell: Yeah, that's a good question, Craig. And and you know, honestly, it's. So when I first was kind of thinking about this, it's not as simple explanation as you might think. It's a constantly kind of evolving term and depending on who you are asking, you can get a, a very different answer. And it's, it's really kind of this large umbrella term.
[00:02:42] . It's kind of a microbially based product or natural product typically derived from a plant, fungi, bacteria, nematode, you know. That pretty much has the ability to inhibit or delay the growth or, you know, cause the death of a pest.
[00:02:56] And you know, with the term biological pesticide, pesticide being extremely broad whether it's, you know, insect, fungi, even rodent, you know, rodent sides, things like that. So yeah, again, it's a very broad term and different, different grooves, different commodities are gonna kind of have their own explanation.
[00:03:09] Even the EU has a different, I think definition versus the EPA as well. So it's an evolving, evolving term.
[00:03:15] Craig Macmillan: What about you, Nevada? Do you have anything to add to that?
[00:03:17] Nevada Smith: I'm kind of with Robert, it's almost like sustainability. What does that mean? It means to me, I get to keep farming every year. But I think for everyone else it might have different definitions. And I think basically the, the premise is, is it's biologically based. It's based on a living organism, something that we can repeat, regrow, and, you know, the societal part of it, bio pesticide, it means it's acting or killing or helping mitigate pest. For proform have a biologically based strategy. And so we, that's what we deliver is those type of tools.
[00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: One of the major pets on grapes is powdery mildew. Around the globe. Probably the major pest overall, I would say fungal disease. I have been seeing a lot of increase in the use of bio pesticides specifically for powdery mildew, some in organic systems, some in more traditional sustainability oriented systems.
[00:04:09] What kind of mechanisms are there out there in the biological world for managing powdery mildew and how does that, how do they work? Nevada, do you wanna start?
[00:04:18] Nevada Smith: Yeah, so for biological pesticides, there's sort of different categories and I'll even. Even throwing some sort of organic pesticides as well into this whole mix. I think as a grower or a wine processor, you have a choice and it's like, either I'm going conventional, I'm looking to maximize my value proposition on my vineyard or my process my wines. And so one of the ways we really think about this is how do you integrate bio pesticides into the overall spray for bio mildew, like our winemaker at our place they always say, Hey, if it's more than 3% power mildew it's a no go. It's a bad day for us. And so for us to take the risk on our farm. For a biologicial pesticide, we had to have some data to really get us excited about it.
[00:05:02] Overall, we wanna see performance. We need to see at least seven to 10 days. And I think that's maybe the biggest challenge a powerdy mildew issue is depending on what sort of climate and what variety of grapes you're growing is how long does it take me to get across the vineyard?
[00:05:17] It's really what it comes down to.
[00:05:18] And you know, maybe from a pathology point of view, Robert has some perspective.
[00:05:24] Rob Blundell: The way we want to kind of think about powdery mildew is it's, you know, it's, it's always gonna be there. It's gonna be present. And biologicals, when used in the right way, can be a fantastic you know, tool in the arsenal. For, for growers or farmers against a deadly pathogen like this.
[00:05:38] Growers really need to kind of consider the goal of using a biological, because there's so many different mechanisms of action of a biological, I mean, it can be live, it can be live, it can be the, you know, the spent fermentation product of a biological, which is gonna work very differently versus an actual liable organism you're gonna put in your field.
[00:05:53] So kind of having a clear mindset from the, from the start is gonna be crucial to knowing. What kind of biological do you use? And also importantly, kind of when to use it as well. Because you can have drastically different outcomes based on like the time of your, you know, the time of venue production and then, and then the time of the season as well.
[00:06:09] But yes yeah, ultimately there's broad, broad mechanism of actions. So if we're putting something on there live you know, you know, with something like powder mildew, this, pathogen functions because it attaches onto leaves. So we have these overwintering structures called cassia.
[00:06:24] So these are basically the dormant structures that are gonna help powerdy mildew, survive. That's why it's been around for so long. That's why it's, it comes back every year. So it basically shuts down, it's fungal mycelium into these dormant hard structures. And then every year it basically reawakens around spring when we get the rainfall.
[00:06:39] So we're gonna get ASCO spores. These are specialized spore structures within that kind of dormant structure. They get released out. So, you know, with the, with the weather coming in this week, that's gonna be, huge out there right now. So we're gonna get the release of those spores.
[00:06:51] They're gonna land on that leaf. So really that's kind of our prime target of having protection is when they're gonna be landing and then adhesing to that leaf. So with something like a biological, if we can get that onto that leaf and then, you know, that's kind of our line of defense really. We want to be setting like a line of defense early in the season.
[00:07:08] Know we have a product regalia. So that gets on there. It has these antimicrobial compounds, which the first point of contact is gonna. Prevent you know, it's gonna help mitigate that interaction between the leaf and the pathogen acts as kind of that medium layer. And then it's also gonna boost the plant's natural defense.
[00:07:24] So how powdery mildew you kind of functions it. Once it gets on that leaf, it has a very specialized structure. Call it, they would call it a whole story or an appium, depending on where you are in the world and specialized structure that will kind of get through that cell wall, under that cell membrane and then sucks out the nutrients from the leaf so we can get a biological on the early to boost that plant defense, boost those, you know, defense fight hormone pathways.
[00:07:46] We're gonna kind of mitigate that as a an initial point of contact. And then hopefully that's gonna set us off for a you know, a good season after that. But the time, yeah, the timing is definitely crucial.
[00:07:55] Nevada Smith: I think to add to Robert's point is really to start your season off right and clean. So that's why as growers or as winemakers, you choose to use some sulfur to kind of mitigate, which is not necessarily a bio pesticide, but it could be organic, you know, depending on what your source of there. But those tools to me, are foundational for getting a clean start if you start bad, and it's gonna be a hell of a year all year long.
[00:08:20] And I think that's the biggest challenge of bio pesticide uses overall is. Where do they fit, what growers they fit in? And it's not a solution for all, for sure. I mean, if you're growing Chardonnay or Pinot Noir on the Sonoma Coast in a foggy bank off of Bodega Bay, tough times, you know? But if you're in Pastor Robles, maybe in the Napa Valley in the valley where it's a little bit drier, you go in cab. Issue. You probably can integrate a nice bio pesticide program into it, and I think that's the secret.
[00:08:58] Craig Macmillan: You mentioned regalia. What is the actual ingredient in regalia? What does it come from?
[00:09:03] Rob Blundell: Yeah, so for Regalia the active ingredient comes from giant knotweed, so Ray Nectria. So that's a giant knotweed extract essentially that's been procured and then optimized in r and d and then applied typically as a folia spray for, for grape vines.
[00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: And then the plant reacts to that, and that's what increases the plant defense mechanism.
[00:09:22] Rob Blundell: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. There's kind of a few, few tiers of how, you know, Regilia kind of functions. So yeah, so we do that kind of initial application pretty much as soon as you, you have any green tissue, you know, really that's a great time to kind of get that on there. And then so the plant is gonna respond to that so typically a plant, defence pathway.
[00:09:39] We have salicylic acid, so that is a key phyto hormones. So phyto hormones are kind of the driving force behind the plant defense. And this is very, you know, this is typical for all kind of pathogens, all kind of crops really. So you're gonna have a pathogen interact and we'll have its initial interaction with a plant.
[00:09:55] And then you're gonna get this initial, like, response straight away from a plan. It's gonna be, Hey, I, my defenses are up. I, I sense this as a foreign agent. Basically I need to, you know, protect myself. So you get this upregulation of fighter hormones. They're very regulated. Pathways that then have these cascading effects to ultimately kind of therefore have longer term defense.
[00:10:14] So you have an upregulation of fighter hormones. This is gonna signal to the plant that, Hey, I need to strengthen my cell walls, for example. So I'm gonna send more liening cell lignin being a crucial component a cell. wall . That's something we see upregulated as a result of regalia. So we get that increase in phyto hormones, we'll get lignin sent to the cell wall.
[00:10:32] We get an increase in antioxidants as well to kinda help break down the pathogen as well. Limiteds effects we get polyphenols various other kind of antimicrobials as a result. So we have kind of direct effects, but then crucially with regalia, so we're gonna have the plant initially respond to its application, and then when the pathogen does.
[00:10:50] Come around for a, an attack. That plan already kind of is, is heightened its responses, it's ready for it, so it's gonna be a faster kind of response time and therefore what we kind of consider more of a, a longer term defense response.
[00:11:02] Craig Macmillan: Are there other modes of action, perhaps ones that are live?
[00:11:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah. And that, I think that's a great point. Is there, you know, the, the bacillus category has been a big category the last dozen years or so. And this could be anything waiting from a bacillus subtles to bacillus Emli. There's other bacilli out there too. And I think they're more of an integrated approach.
[00:11:22] So I conventional our farm vineyards. We're gonna just rotate it in there. So just like if you're straight organic or you're straight bio pesticide, it'd be a regalia, as an example, rotated with a bacillus product. We happen to have one as well, a very nice one called Sargus. But there's other great solutions out there in the marketplace today. There's other living organisms as well. There's some products in the Streptomyces categories as well. They're used in grow rotation, but I think to me as a grower and as a winemaker myself. I'm just looking for integration, IPM strategy all the way along. And depend on how, what your guard rails are for farming that would dictate what your options are overall.
[00:12:07] Craig Macmillan: So, , to you, Robert, , how do these actually work? Like bacillus subtilis and things?
[00:12:11] How do they actually either prevent or treat powdery mildew in grape.
[00:12:15] Rob Blundell: Yeah, good question. So for Bacillus with Star in particular so we're actually not looking to treat powdery mildew kind of outright with this product itself. That's more where regalia is gonna come as a benefit. So actually Bacillus is great for something like botrytis in grapes. So, and this is really, really where we can kind of combine regalia and stargus together for a very effective program.
[00:12:34] Kind of a one-two punch. So we, you have a live bacillus product. So we have spores that are gonna colonize a surface. So whether that's being the soil, you know, microbia the leaves or the berries, and with botrytis infecting berries causing damage, necrotic lesions in those berries, that's where something like stargus , a bacillus product can be applied to those berries to effectively colonize it.
[00:12:55] And again, kind of creating like a nice. Kind of shield essentially from pretty much all fungal pathogens work the same. They have to attach, then they have to penetrate to essentially, hold on. So if we can kind of form a physical, kind of physical barrier, that's gonna be great. So for a lot of the Bacillus products they produce a suite of antimicrobials.
[00:13:13] So star for our company we have a suite of antimicrobials that produces, so we have things like Itur, Phin, these are all really good antimicrobials. They're gonna have a direct effect on it. So those spores will be able to, you know, colonize the berry, for example, and then help Yeah. Prevent prevent powerdy mildew So you have this live culture essentially that's on the grapes and it's producing compounds, and that's where the, the antimicrobial comes in or the antifungal comes in.
[00:13:40] Nevada Smith: Yes. And.
[00:13:47] So there's two registrations from an EPA standpoint. There's the live bacteria count, which people are familiar with from back in the day when there was bts, right cells ths for worm protection. And so we measure the CFUs, which is a colony forming unit. So the bacteria, and there's a minimum threshold that we have for our product as well as anybody else that registers their bacteria. Just sort of a quality control thing for the grower to know this is the level we produce. What we. Seeing the production for our solution is really around the chemical compounds being created in the fermentation process, this lipopeptides cycle. And so that's what's important to know that there's some differentiation.
[00:14:25] And I always use the example, I'm a huge basketball fan and you know, there's a difference between Michael Jordan and myself. I'm not at his level. And so not all bacilli are created equal, but they all do have some performance values for them. And obviously, you know, the more you can look into science and whether it be uc, extension and the Gubler Eskalen models and local trial researchers will give you the value proposition each of these products brings to you.
[00:14:50] Craig Macmillan: Now, this is something that I, I don't think I've heard before and I wanna make sure that I heard it correctly. So, some of the protection is actually coming from things that are being produced during the fermentation production of the bacteria themselves. And so these are side things. And then that makes it into the final product.
[00:15:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah, that's actually the most important thing on foliar. So holistically for bacillus, and this is a very broad brush here unless you're in a tropical environment like bananas in. Columbia or Costa Rica, you're not growing more spores on the leaf surface. You might have that happen a little bit depending on sort of your micro environments. What you really want is coverage and then that eradicates.
[00:15:29] The way that the the bacillus really works, it really pokes holes into the cell wall of power mildew. So that's, and it just kinda leaks out and dies. And so it's botrytis , and or powder mildew. That's the major effects that it has on these pest diseases.
[00:15:43] But in those rare examples, I'll tell you, we've seen some results of our products being used in crops and tropical environments. If it can grow, it's creating more value. Now let's talk about something different. You put bacillus. Sargus into the ground in a soil treatment. It has tremendous effects on colonizing around the roots.
[00:16:01] And so that's where bacillus is actually known in its natural environment into the soil profile. So that's where we really see that the one two value. Now, that's not what we're using it for in grapes. Grapes, is for foliar control of. And mild diseases. But we have many other crops that we use bacillus for like corn, for root management and prolification around the diseases down there.
[00:16:27] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Robert?
[00:16:29] Rob Blundell: Yeah, so that's, yeah, excellent points from Nevada. So yeah, kind, kind of getting, talking about how we can use bacillus, you know, actually to go into the soil. So something like nematodes, you know, that's, that's a huge issue in grapes always has been. It's where we have, you know, root stocks engineered over the years to have, you know, nematode resistant root stocks.
[00:16:43] Again, not, not kind of the primary purpose of what we'd be looking to use stargus, and vineyards, but again, having a soil colonizer is fantastic. You know, a lot of the. The majority of diseases, especially in like the row crops, they're coming from the below ground. You know, you've got the pythium and lettuce.
[00:16:57] You've got like sclero, things like that, huge kind of soil-borne pathogens. So again, having something that you can add to the soil, you know, the soil already has its own fantastic suite of, naturally present. You know, bacteria, fungi, that's, you know, like Nevada said, that's what we got ab baus from, stargus from.
[00:17:12] So we're just kind of adding to that to kind of help boost the fight. And we can always kind of think of the interaction between pathogens and plants as kind of this arms race. There's a ways, you know, the pathogen kind of gets ahead by evolving slightly, and then you have the ho response from the plant and then the, the microbiome as well.
[00:17:27] So we're just trying to kind of tip the scales and our balance is how a good way to kind of think of biologicals as well. And I think as you were mentioning, kind of the, the fermentation process, and that's where we get our microbials from.
[00:17:37] Every microbe has primary metabolites. That's what's key to basically the survival of a microbe. But then we have secondary metabolites, and these are very highly specialized products that get produced. For bacillus, during that fermentation process, this is a, you know, these are unique metabolites. You know, metabolites are produced by the majority of. Micros, but the in particular can produce these like fantastic suite of very unique metabolites. So that's where the, a non-life product kind of comes into itself as well. By us able to understand what are those metabolites we're producing same fermentation, can we optimize those? And then do we, do we even need a live product as a result of that?
[00:18:12] Craig Macmillan: Um, it sounds like this could have a really dramatic impact or role in fungicide resistance management. I. What is that role? Or are we talking about going over completely to biological for a program or are we including in a rotation with other materials? What about organic growing where we have a, a little smaller suite of things that we can use?
[00:18:35] Nevada Smith: , I'll start with that if you don't mind.
[00:18:36] I think it's a great question and where I see it fitting is most synthetic pesticides for disease control are really affecting the mitochondria on the inside of the dupo. And where I see it fitting is the sort of one, two, I would say contact plus systemic. That's an a de-risk, your resistance management issues. But B, increase the likelihood that those products work better and longer.
[00:19:02] So today we position a product like Sargus other bacillus products in the marketplace to be in combination with a. SDHI chemistry, like Luna would be an example of that, or Pristine. We would see those integrated in the cycle of sprays, which is, it's very similar to why you use sulfur with those products as well.
[00:19:23] But I think, you know, as a winemaker, I want less sulfur my crop as possible, but obviously I want, as a farmer too, I want it to be clean as can be. So it's kind of this yin and yang overall.
[00:19:33] But for resistance management, I think you have to really think about the whole approach. And once again, back guardrails. Of what your restrictions are for you as a farmer and maybe the winemaker working together with them. How do you really get to the. And, you know, I, it's kind of a joke too, but we talked about earlier the word sustainability be very broad. Stroke. Well, I'm wanna farm into the future years. I wanna have that vineyard for a hundred years and not to replant it. So I'm really trying to keep as clean as possible all the time, especially for the over wintering stuff. And so to me early often protection, control contact plus systemic is the approach that we take at our farm as well.
[00:20:10] Craig Macmillan: When we say earlier, are we talking bud break, two inches, four leaves?
[00:20:15] Nevada Smith: For powder. Yeah. But then we could debate, you know, on these opsis issues and can cane issues.
[00:20:24] Craig Macmillan: When would I wanna put on a bacillus?
[00:20:27] Nevada Smith: I would start with a sulfur spray about bud break here, and then kind of rotate back into the bloom time for the first bloom spray, about 50% bloom, more or less. I kind of time it too, and if it's a little later, I'm okay with that. That would be the major time where I get the first shots on and that we, I would start with regalia, for example, just because it's a different mode of action. And then I'd come back with the bacillus here about seven to 10 days later.
[00:20:51] Craig Macmillan: And would you then include synthetic materials as well, I'm assuming.
[00:20:55] Nevada Smith: Yeah, on our farm we would typically our biggest issue is getting across the, the vineyard. And so we're looking to start off with a synthetic material first, just so we can get a nice, well, sulfur first, sorry. That probably like A-S-D-H-I chemistry. And then I'd start to think about how can I integrate my approaches to, being softer chemistry based through the rest of the season.
[00:21:17] Craig Macmillan: Does that make sense to you, Robert?
[00:21:19] Rob Blundell: Yes. And actually I'm just gonna jump back a little bit in our conversation. I just add a few more details kind of on this approach as well. So yeah, a little bit earlier, I kinda mentioned this arms race between the pathogen and the host and, you know, the available treatments that we have and really kind of a huge benefit of. Adding a biological, say, into your conventional program or just introducing more biologicals in general for your, your fungicides is you know, as, as Nata was saying, you know, a lot of the conventional chemistry is targeted in that mitochondria. It's a very specialized kind of function. It's there, it does a great job when it works well, but then.
[00:21:51] We get pathogen resistance, obviously. So there's kind of two types of resistance. You get qualitative resistance and quantitative. So qualitative is when there is a kind of sudden or abrupt loss in the ability of say, a fungicide to work. And then you have quantitative where it's kind of more of a gradual decline in effectiveness.
[00:22:08] And then you get kind of these varying levels of fungicide sensitivity versus that qualitative where you're having either resistant or a sensitive is isolate. And this. It's great. We're talking about grapes and powerdy mildew, 'cause this is one of like, this is like the classic textbook example. We kind of get taught in pathology about this because powerdy mildew, it has these really quick cycling times, produces a number of generations per season, very easily dispersed.
[00:22:28] So this is such a high risk kind of category for this fungicide resistance. So again, if we have just a whole range of availabilities in terms of different fungicide options, you know, chemistry, soft chemistry, biologicals various other options, we're just kind of increasing our chances of really. Just well, and one not having any pathogen resistance.
[00:22:49] Because again, as soon as you have that, then you have you, you really lose your options for your chemistries. So again, just, you know, introducing a few biologicals here and there, especially for, you know, grapes on the West coast, which is the amount of sprays we're having to do in other states where you have less sprays, you can kind of get away with kind of not considering your approach a little bit more.
[00:23:05] You don't have to kind of. Do your frack checks as much because maybe you're only doing one or two sprays. But here we have to be very, very concerned with our, you know, what products we're using and then at what timing they're using. So again, just having a biological to really kind of take the pressure off some of those chemistries is a, is a huge a huge, valuable source of preserving the life of your chemistry.
[00:23:23] And then have, like Nevada said, you know, having sustainable wines for the years to come.
[00:23:28] Craig Macmillan: Actually, that made me think of something. Is there a risk of resistance being developed to biological strategies?
[00:23:38] Rob Blundell: Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. So yes.
[00:23:41] It's kind of a newer question. Yeah. So again, with a lot of these chemistries being very, very site specific function, all you have to do is have a very small mutation in your, say, powerdy mildew, to overcome that. And typically with biologicals, the typically, I say typically the mode of action is a little bit more broad.
[00:23:57] So very rarely are you gonna have an extremely like. , so like a lot of the chemistries buy into certain receptors that their job that do that really well. Biologicals don't tend to do that as much. They're more of a broad spectrum. That's why we see a, like for our fungicides, we see a range of control against a lot of different, you know, powerd mildew, we've got ascomiscies,, Presidio, my seeds, they pretty much do well across a range because they are more broad spectrum.
[00:24:19] Not to say that in time we're gonna start to see a decline. It's, you know, again, it's kind of really how we consider using them. And we. Whether we wanna like, fully rely on them or hey, that's, let's, let's use more of a, a combined approach. So again, we just really make that sustainable as well.
[00:24:33] So kind of to answer your question definitely it comes with risk but kind of inherently due to the more broad spectrum nature of biologicals, we're not too worried about the kind of resistance that we've seen developed as a result of c chemistries in that very, very specific function of a chemistry.
[00:24:48] Craig Macmillan: That makes a lot of sense. I know that you had mentioned you're farming in a more traditional fashion, Nevada, but your products, and obviously I know some folks in the organic area. What role do biologicals play in an organic fungicide program? Nevada?
[00:25:03] Nevada Smith: I think it's definitely at the core of your foundation of seeing how you are gonna approach powerdy, mildew and botrytus. Is it a typical, you know, seven spray system, which I'd say it's kind of typical for the northern coast markets or the coastal range. Or if you're in the valley floor are you more in that three to five applications for bio pesticides and, and what timing and how you're approaching those things are critical overall to assessing those on the organic.
[00:25:30] You don't have to be just organic. You could be, from a theoretical point of view, you can just choose to be this type of farmer, which is, I want to choose softer chemistries. And I think that's the mixed bag that we deal with with customers, a crop and the crop advisors out there.
[00:25:44] Rob Blundell: Yeah, and I was gonna say just to kinda add to that as well. So again, regardless whether you're doing organic or chemistry or biologicals, you know. Really key as well. Foundation is just having good cultural control as well. Something we haven't really touched on today, but again, you can really increase the effectiveness of your biological, your chemistry based on what you're doing in, in the vineyard.
[00:26:02] So, you know, things like, you know, canopy thinning, so if you're using say, a biological, you wanna try to colonize those berries, you wanna kind of thin out that kind of piece. You're getting a better spray coverage. You're also gonna, you know, reduce the humidity and that kind of pee of things like mildew you know, effective pruning in dry conditions.
[00:26:18] Navar was kind of talking about opsis, some of those canker pathogens. So those grapevine trunk diseases, that is still the most effective way to control a grapevine trunk disease is just to prune under the right conditions. 'cause you need that wound, that pruning wound to heal when it's, you're not gonna get a, let's see, you know, we got that ring coming in this week.
[00:26:33] So, grapevine trunk disease is dormant on those on the, on the parts of the vine. They're gonna be airborne. So you need to make sure there's a very good dry window. So again, like cultural practice is always, always key to whatever approach or biologicals or chemicals.
[00:26:46] Nevada Smith: I think the add to that, one of the biggest things I remember, I wanna say it's like in 2010, I saw Gubler trials, Gubler, uc, Davis, you know, famous for everything. And he had the trial and all he did was pull leaves. On the bunch closures, and I was like, wow, that looked amazing. And I said, what? What spray did you have on there?
[00:27:02] And they're like, nothing. We just pulled leaves and just literally that airflow coming across there, drying out, I assume it was just drying out the spores was amazing. I was like, wow. But then I started doing the cost analysis as a grower. I'm like, I can't send a crew there and pull leaves all the time. So,
[00:27:19] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's true. I mean, and that's why it's a mix of things. I think. It's integrated pest management. You, you know, you do want to get some airflow through there. You will probably do some canopy management, whether you do shoot thinning or leaf removal. Some of that also helps with coverage.
[00:27:32] Right. So using a mix of cultural and chemical or pesticide techniques is probably, probably wise. I'm not a pest control advisor, so I probably shouldn't say that. I. But I think I, you, they're not the first folks that have, have reminded me of that. And sometimes I know that, I think we kind of forget.
[00:27:49] I wanna change topics a little bit. There's a, I don't wanna say new, but new to me. Area bio fertilizers a totally different kind of strategy for plant nutrition Nevada. What is a bio fertilizer? What, how do they work? What is it and how does it work?
[00:28:05] Nevada Smith: So bio fertilizers can be a multitude of things, but once again, back to bio based on living organisms prior living organisms. We happen to have one that we're just launching this year into the grape industry called Illustra. It's based on this unique technology, UBP. Universal biological platform. I'm not trying to be a billboard ad here, but the reason why I'm bringing it up is it, it's really is a platform, which is interesting about it because it's, it's a technology that we can change and manipulate depending on how we go through the production cycle. And so we're creating tools that are more made for abiotic stresses.
[00:28:39] And so we're trying to deal with different stresses that. Crop can deal with. And so right now the core market that we've been using these products , for is like soybeans and corn.
[00:28:49] But as we think about the permanent crop markets of grapes, tree nuts, citrus, it's a little bit different as far as cycle and how you approach it. And so what we've seen through the data, these bio fertilizers is really trying to mitigate abiotic stresses. So what we're really mitigating is one, like you, you think about herbicide applications. You kind do a banded application near the tree trunk into about a third of the spray row. That herbicide usually hits that tree trunk.
[00:29:14] There is a cause and effect on the grapevine itself. What if you could put a tool down that was sprayed on the same time to mitigate that stress or de-stress it from even how much time and pressure it's having? So. Our product is really one of those tools today that's really focused on mitigating biotic stresses.
[00:29:30] Other things I can think about as a farmer is like salinity in the soil. The roots are pushing. You have water issues in California. We all talk about that. How do you mitigate the plant that still maximize the yield? So. Choosing the bio fertilizer today that's really focused on that, not just being a typical, you know, can 17 or un 30 twos based nitrogen based products.
[00:29:51] This is something else to bring into the marketplace. They're kind of more niche based, depending on what you're dealing with. But there there's several out there. There's, seaweed extracts would be a big one, right? That people use a lot around farms. There's humic, andic acids, organic acids in general. So those are the kind of the buckets of items today that farmers are choosing for bio fertilizers.
[00:30:14] Rob Blundell: Hmm. Yeah. And I can yeah, touch a little bit more on the, on the UBP illustrate product as well in terms of kind of how, how that really functions. And as Navar said, it's, you know, helping bounce back after, say, some herbicide damage, promoting that early season boost in biomass.
[00:30:27] So, you know, a product like this, this UBP will basically kind of. Inducing cell division. So in you know, increasing mitochondrial activity, more cell division essentially leads to more chlorophyll, more photosynthesis graded by a mass production. And it's actually done by acidifying the cell wall. So we acidify a cell wall. You get more what we have these, there's proton pumps on these cell wall.
[00:30:48] We're basically pumping in more protons, increasing the rate of that cell division. So we're basically yeah, boosting that in ocean season biomass. Therefore having that. You know, quicker resilience to say, you know, abiotic stresses like no said, whether it's salinity, salt, drought, water, things like that.
[00:31:02] So yeah, numerous, numerous benefits of some of these fertilizers.
[00:31:07] Craig Macmillan: Which actually talking about antibiotic stress, that it reminds me of something. I want to apply it to this, but I also want to go back. If you're using a live material, a bacillus or something, or if you have a, a bio fertilizer that may is are there living things in bio fertilizers.
[00:31:22] Nevada Smith: There can be,
[00:31:24] uh
[00:31:24] Craig Macmillan: be. Okay.
[00:31:25] Nevada Smith: We don't have anything in ours today, but I think there are, let's call the word impregnated Fertilizers. With living organisms. It could be trico, dermas, it could be other things, bacillus. And those are good, good tools to use.
[00:31:39] The hard part is like, you know, now we start to open the can of worms around like compost tea, like what's in there. And I think that's the biggest challenge that growers, those things do work as a whole. But then you start to run into the quality assurance, quality control. And I think that's where companies invest in the bio pesticide industry are really trying to. Tell the story and not just be perceived as snake oils and saying, Hey, replicated work we measure to this level, like CFU content and here's what we expect results to be consistently.
[00:32:08] And this is sort of the shelf life issues and we're kind of getting as a, you know, the world evolves. I think there's just this environmental things that people choose to do. And I think, you know, everything works. Just a question of how you integrate it into your own farming systems.
[00:32:24] Craig Macmillan: So speaking of environmental factors and antibiotic stress one thing that's occurred to me is that if I have something that's that's out there, either that's living or maybe maybe a fragile compound, how do things like drought and heat affect these materials in the field?
[00:32:38] Rob Blundell: Yeah. Yeah, very good question. I think historically that was always kind of. What people thought of the negative of biologicals were like, well, is only gonna work under certain conditions. You know, where, where have you tested it? So yeah, it's, it's a good question as well.
[00:32:50] It's , case by case dependent you know, certain extremes and temperatures, various conditions as well are gonna have effects on, you know, the, the longevity of that. But we, you know, we try to test it under. There a variety of conditions. And then for particularly something you know, with our fungicides as well for, for the grape industry, you know, these new be tested on a variety of key varietals as well.
[00:33:10] You know, it's, Hey, it might work for Chardonnay but not for Sauvignon Blanc. So that's important to evaluate as well, rather than just bring a product to market that like you, it's only gonna work on very certain aspects of a, of the single industry.
[00:33:22] Craig Macmillan: So heat as an example, , you have a fair amount of confidence that I can apply something in the, in the heat if I have a hot, dry condition in the summer that it's not going to. Break down those materials that are there from the fermentation or kill the live organism. We, we think there's a fair amount of resilience here.
[00:33:39] Rob Blundell: Yeah, again, definitely gonna be dependent on the, the type of microbe and the type of metabolite that it's producing. But you know, microbes in nature are exposed to these extreme conditions just naturally anyway, you know, so we have epi amplified slipping on the surface of products. So on the surface of.
[00:33:54] Structures. So like a grapevine, like a leaf. They're obviously out there and exposed to the elements every single day. And then the soil is a, is a chaotic environment. There's a lot going on in the soil. So microbes are just, you know, extremely resilient in nature themselves. So there's gonna be a, again it's gonna vary depending on, you know, the microbe and, and the product we're using.
[00:34:12] But there's good efficacy.
[00:34:16] Craig Macmillan: What's the future? What is the future looking like for biological products, living or extra?
[00:34:23] Nevada Smith: for the marketing hat on myself, not the farmer side.
[00:34:27] It, I think everything's coming down to specialized sprays. And if I had to vision what the features look like to me, it's gonna be about. Seeing robots down the vineyard. They have 18 different things and their little mechanisms and there's, they're just, they're analogizing what's going on in that grape cluster itself.
[00:34:44] They're spot spraying three or four things and they're going down the next level. That to me, is where we're gonna get down to the future, where the grapes themselves will naturally grow less chemicals to be used overall.
[00:34:54] but if you need to go through and really take care of a problem, you're gonna go through and take care of a problem. And I think that's where it's become very exciting to me. You're gonna put less of a prophylactic spray across all systems, and you're kind of really create some microenvironments where you think that Vine number seven got sprayed a lot. Vine number 21 has not been sprayed all season. Wonder why? Let's go check it out. Let's understand and investigate.
[00:35:18] The other big thing I think in grapes that's really interesting from exploratory research and development side for our company is like viruses. Viruses have not been addressed and it's becoming an issue. It's something I want to kind of explore and put on our docket of, you know, assessment stuff and how we can take new technologies to really improve virus transmissions. How do you mitigate once you have a virus? And it still produce that vine for another 10 plus years. So it gets quality and quantity out of it. Those are the kind of things interesting to me.
[00:35:50] Craig Macmillan: Robert.
[00:35:51] Rob Blundell: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, really good point, Sarah as well. And yeah, viruses in particular is, is something we see about in the grapevine industry. And yeah, often biological companies we're focused on, you know, the, the fungal issues, the bacteria, the, the nematodes. So that's, that's a huge area that really needs some more dedication.
[00:36:06] So there's gonna be some great technologies available for that in the future. Yeah, I think to speak to no Nevada's points on kind of the future of it, I think like a really kind of custom tailored approach is gonna be available for those that want it. Particularly from the pathology side of my interest.
[00:36:19] I think precision monitoring and detection of disease is just, I. Advancing leaps and bounds. So again, like, you know, going out there and doing scouting, hopefully people are gonna have a lot better tools available, available to 'em in the near future to really kind of understand crucial times in their season where disease is coming in.
[00:36:36] And then again, like I. Just having better tools to kind of really actually di inform us of the pathogen as well that's present rather than just again, a lot of, a lot of diseases is hard to pinpoint to an exact pathogen. We're lucky in grapes, powerdy, mildew, and, botrytis are very obvious. We know what those are, we think are some of the row crops.
[00:36:52] It could be a whole host of things. We've got nematodes, we've got various sore pathogens that we can't actually see. So I think yeah, improving disease diagnosis and detection, having these precision tools is gonna be a huge part of the future where biologicals can integrate themselves in as well.
[00:37:07] Craig Macmillan: That sounds pretty exciting. I wanna thank you both for being on the program. This has been a really great conversation. My guests today we're Nevada Smith. He is the head of Marketing North America and Robert Blande, who's a research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Thanks for being on the podcast.
[00:37:22] Nevada Smith: Appreciate you.
[00:37:23] Rob Blundell: Thank you very much, Craig. It was a pleasure.
[00:37:25] Craig Macmillan: And to our listeners, thank you for listening to Sustainable Wine Growing Vineyard team.
[00:37:29] Nevada Smith: Craig, one more thing. We gotta just drink more wine.
[00:37:40] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening.
[00:37:41] Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard industry products believes that integrity is vital to building long-term customer, employee, and vendor relationships. And they work hard to provide quality products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard industry products gives back investing in both the community and the industry.
[00:38:06] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Pro Farm, an article titled, what are Bio Pesticides Plus Related Sustainable Wine Growing Podcast episodes. 117 Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 123. What's happening in biologicals for pest management and plant health? 266 Soft pesticide trial for powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis and sour rot, and a healthy soils playlist.
[00:38:34] If you'd like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts on vineyard team.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.
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[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Sustainable farming practices are essential to protect the environment, improve a long-term agricultural productivity and support healthy communities.
[00:00:08] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.
[00:00:27] And this week's marketing tip, we're going to take a close look at three areas where regenerative farming practices make a big impact, including water management, soil health, and habitat preservation,
[00:00:39] let's kick it off with water management. Water is one of agriculture's most critical resources. Sustainable farmers work carefully to both use water efficiently and protect quality. Anyone who has struggled to keep a plant alive knows that plants don't like too little or too much water and wine. Grapes are no different.
[00:00:57] Regenerative farming practices incorporate moisture sensing technologies to help farmers determine irrigation needs when placed in the soil. These devices estimate how much water is available to the plant, and farmers can use this information to avoid both over and under watering their crops.
[00:01:13] When it comes to rain, there's a greater impact than just irrigating the grapevines. Heavy rains can pull sediment, nutrients, and other farm inputs into neighboring water bodies. This causes imbalances in the water body ecosystem and could threaten the life within it.
[00:01:28] Plant matter can remedy these issues. Roots of living plants spread underground act as a filter that holds sediment in place. Preventing it from exiting the property. Vegetation above ground slows water down as it travels and eases the impact of rain as it hits the ground. Furthering the anti erosion benefits.
[00:01:46] The next time you drive past a vineyard, take a look at the plants growing in between the vine rows. Those cover crops are help protecting waterways.
[00:01:55] Now let's talk about soil health. Healthy soil is the foundation for a thriving farm and a resilient ecosystem. Sustainable practices aim to keep soils rich in nutrients full of life and resistant to erosion for years to come,
[00:02:08] rather than relying on guesswork. Farmers committed to sustainability conduct regular soil tests. This helps them make nutrient management plans that supply the plants with the food that they need without over applying fertilizer
[00:02:22] and back to those cover crops. Healthy soils have a lot of life in them. Microbes, fungi and bacteria are key players in decomposition, helping to convert and transport nutrients that are vital to a healthy plant.
[00:02:35] While cover crops are a fantastic way to enhance soil biodiversity, their benefits extend even further. They can provide refuge for beneficial insects, prevent erosion and improve water infiltration.
[00:02:48] Let's talk about habitat preservation. The influence of farming extends beyond the fence line. Regenerative farmers recognize that their land is part of a larger ecosystem. Protecting natural habitats and promoting biodiversity are key components of responsible land management. Many farmers set aside areas of their property to remain wild or minimally disturbed.
[00:03:09] These spaces serve as important refuges for wildlife and help preserve native plant and animal species beyond simply leaving areas undeveloped. Sustainable farmers often actively work to create and maintain habitats that encourage a diversity of species, including pollinators and beneficial insects.
[00:03:28] They may also take special measures. To protect endangered species where applicable.
[00:03:33] All of these regenerative practices are incorporated into the SIP Certified program. If you want to learn more about being a sustainable wine grower.
[00:03:40] Check out SIP certified.org and sign up to complete the program as a self-assessment for free. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.
Due to the nature of the event, all registrations are final and non-refundable. We appreciate your understanding.
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