With Seed Expert Bill McDorman

Join us for our monthly live Seed Chat at SeedChat.org

What makes a seed viable, and how do you know when it's ready to grow? In this episode of Seed Chat, Greg Peterson of the Urban Farm Podcast joins seed expert Bill McDorman to explore the art and science of harvesting mature, viable seeds from vegetables, fruits, and wild plants. They share practical techniques for saving seeds from cucumbers, squash, tomatoes, peppers, beans, lettuce, and more, explaining when to harvest, how to dry and process seeds, and why nature's built-in diversity matters. The conversation also explores the importance of seed saving, locally adapted varieties, and community seed networks in building a more resilient food system. Their message is simple: when in doubt, save the seeds and see what happens.

Key Topics & Entities

• Seed viability and germination testing
• Seed maturity and harvesting techniques
• Saving cucumber and winter squash seeds
• Harvesting seeds from grocery-store produce
• Seed saving from tomatoes, peppers, melons, and apples
• Wet seed processing and fermentation
• Harvesting and storing beans, peas, and cowpeas
• Lettuce flowering, seed collection, and winnowing
• Natural reseeding and letting plants self-propagate
• Genetic diversity and locally adapted seeds
• Native Seeds/SEARCH and traditional seed varieties
• Masanobu Fukuoka and The One-Straw Revolution
• Going to Seed and its seed-sharing program
• Community seed libraries and regional seed networks

Key Questions Answered

What makes a seed viable?

A viable seed is mature enough to germinate and grow into a plant, and it has remained healthy enough to survive conditions such as extreme heat, excessive moisture, and seed-borne pathogens. Seeds don't all become viable at the same moment; there is natural variation within a plant's seed production.

How do you know when cucumbers are ready for seed saving?

Choose a healthy, desirable cucumber and mark it on the vine. Leave it to mature well beyond the eating stage until it becomes large and often turns orange. The seeds should fill out rather than remain flat and immature.

Should winter squash be cured before saving its seeds?

Yes. Leaving winter squash in the field for several days after harvest maturity, particularly during warm weather, allows the seeds to finish maturing before the squash is opened. Summer squash should also be left on the plant well beyond the usual eating stage.

Can you save viable seeds from grocery-store produce?

Often, yes. Tomatoes are frequently suitable for seed saving, and bell pepper seeds may be more mature if the fruit is allowed to turn red before processing. Melons and squash may also provide useful seeds. However, seeds from hybrid or seedless varieties can produce unpredictable results.

Will seeds from an apple grow into the same kind of apple?

Usually not. Apple flowers can receive pollen from different trees, creating new genetic combinations. Growing an apple tree from seed can take three to ten years to evaluate, and the resulting fruit may be better, worse, or simply different from the original.

Is fermenting seeds necessary when saving tomatoes and cucumbers?

No. Seeds can germinate successfully without fermentation. However, wet processing and fermentation can help reduce certain seed-borne disease problems and may improve storage and handling, particularly when processing larger quantities.

How should you harvest and store bean and pea seeds?

Allow the pods to dry on the vine until they begin to open. If weather conditions make that impractical, pull the vines and hang them indoors until the pods dry completely. This helps the seeds mature and prepares them for storage.

What is the best way to harvest lettuce seeds?

Let lettuce flower and develop its characteristic fluffy seed heads. Watch for a large number of mature seed heads, then cut the stalks, turn them upside down, and shake them into a paper bag. Winnow away the fluff and chaff before storing the seeds.

Why should gardeners allow some plants to reseed naturally?

Plants can respond to their local conditions and emerge when the timing is right. By allowing crops such as basil, cilantro, lettuce, and kale to reseed, gardeners can encourage plants that are already growing successfully in their gardens.

What should you do when you're unsure whether a seed is viable?

Save it and try growing it. Bill emphasizes that seed maturity varies among species and even among individual seeds. Experimentation can reveal surprising germination potential and teach gardeners more about the resilience of plants.

How does seed diversity strengthen local food systems?

Growing many varieties helps gardeners discover which plants perform best in their particular conditions. Sharing seeds and observations through community networks helps preserve genetic diversity and makes locally adapted crops more accessible.

How does the Going to Seed program help gardeners?

Going to Seed collects seeds contributed by growers, mixes diverse varieties into regional seed-sharing collections, and distributes them with educational materials. The goal is to help gardeners discover varieties suited to their local environments while rebuilding genetic diversity.

Episode Highlights

• Viability starts with maturity. Seeds need sufficient time to develop, and harvesting too early can leave them flat, immature, or unable to germinate.
• Let vegetables mature beyond the dinner table. Cucumbers, summer squash, and winter squash need extra time on the plant or additional curing before their seeds are ready.
• Experiment with grocery-store produce. Tomatoes, peppers, melons, and other fruits can be useful seed sources, although the resulting plants may vary depending on the variety and its genetics.
• Fermentation has a purpose beyond germination. Wet processing can help address seed-borne diseases, though it isn't always necessary for home gardeners.
• Let nature do some of the work. Allowing selected plants to reseed naturally can encourage crops that are well suited to the garden's conditions.
• Save seeds even when you're uncertain. Different plants mature at different rates, and some seeds can continue developing after flowers or seed-bearing material are harvested.
• Diversity is a practical investment. Bill recommends growing as many varieties as possible to discover which ones thrive locally.
• Community seed sharing multiplies the benefits. Going to Seed and local seed libraries connect gardeners, preserve varieties, and help identify crops suited to different regions.

Calls to Action & Resources

• Seed Chat SeedChat.org: Join live conversations about seeds, seed saving, and resilient gardening.
• Going to Seed GoingToSeed.org: Explore diverse seed collections, regional seed-sharing programs, and opportunities to contribute seeds.
• Native Seeds/SEARCH Learn about traditional crop varieties and the preservation of regional seed diversity.
• Urban Farm Podcast UrbanFarm.org: Listen to conversations about growing food, saving seeds, and strengthening local food systems.
• Seed Library Network SeedLibraryNetwork.org Explore seed libraries and community resources; the episode mentions a recent Urban Farm Podcast conversation with Rebecca Newburn, approximately episode 1006.

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

with Jennifer Miller & Erin Torgerson

In this Episode - What if small farmers could build trust with their customers without taking on the cost and paperwork of USDA Organic certification? That’s the idea behind Certified Naturally Grown (CNG), a grassroots organization helping farmers show customers how they grow their food. In this episode, Greg Peterson sits down with Jennifer Miller and Erin Torgerson from CNG to talk about how peer inspections, transparency, and a strong farming community help make that possible. Along the way, they explore the importance of local food, saving seeds, sharing knowledge, and making good food more accessible to everyone.

Our Guests: Jennifer is the interim executive director of Certified Naturally Grown. From working on farms around the world to running her own farm and directing two food hubs, Jennifer's hands-on experience proves one thing, food is her love language.

Erin is the communications and certification coordinator of Certified Naturally Grown. While filming a student documentary about a local farm-to-table restaurant, Erin caught her first glimpse of a biodiverse small-scale farm and hasn't looked back.

Certified Naturally Grown is an organization that offers peer review certification to farmers and beekeepers producing food, flowers, and fiber for their local communities by working in harmony with nature without relying on synthetic chemicals or GMOs.

Key Topics

• Certified Naturally Grown (CNG): A farmer-led certification program built around trust, transparency, and community.
• CNG and USDA Organic: How CNG offers an alternative for farmers who find USDA Organic certification too expensive or complicated.
• Peer inspections: Farmers visit and review one another’s operations, creating opportunities to learn as well as verify growing practices.
• Participatory Guarantee Systems (PGS): A community-based approach to building confidence in how food is produced.
• Making farming work financially: The challenges small-scale farmers face when balancing good growing practices with the realities of running a business.
• Five CNG certification programs: Produce and flowers, livestock, apiaries, mushrooms, and aquaponics.
• Transparency for consumers: How customers can learn more about participating farms and review inspection information.
• Local food systems: Why connecting farmers, consumers, and communities matters.
• Food hubs and distribution: The challenges of getting locally grown food to the people who want it.
• Natural beekeeping: Approaches to raising bees with attention to their health and well-being.
• Aquaponics: Growing food through a system that combines fish and plants.
• Seed saving: Preserving seed varieties and helping farmers maintain greater control over their growing systems.
• Farmer education and mentorship: How sharing experience can help new and established growers succeed.
• Understanding the food system: Why building a better food future involves more than just how we grow food.

Key Questions Answered

Why was Certified Naturally Grown created?

CNG was developed to help smaller farmers demonstrate their growing practices and build customer confidence without the expense and administrative burden that can come with USDA Organic certification.

How is CNG different from USDA Organic?

CNG uses standards based on the USDA National Organic Program, but it operates as a separate, community-based certification program. It is not the same as USDA Organic certification.

How does the certification process work?

Farmers apply to the program and participate in peer inspections. These visits help verify growing practices while giving farmers a chance to exchange ideas and learn from one another.

Is CNG affordable for small farmers?

The organization uses a sliding-scale dues structure, with options intended to make participation more accessible to farms of different sizes and circumstances.

How can consumers learn more about a CNG farm?

Consumers can visit the CNG website to find participating farms and review available application and inspection information.

What do farmers gain beyond certification?

They become part of a community where growers can share knowledge, build relationships, and learn from people facing many of the same challenges.

Why does seed saving matter?

Saving seeds helps preserve varieties and gives growers a more active role in maintaining the plants they depend on.

What makes building a local food system challenging?

Growing food is only one part of the picture. Farmers also need ways to distribute their harvest, reach customers, and make their businesses financially viable.

What advice emerges for farmers who want to grow differently?

Look for ways to build trust with customers, connect with other growers, and learn from a community of people working toward similar goals.

Episode Highlights

• Jennifer Miller and Erin Torgerson explain how Certified Naturally Grown helps farmers demonstrate their growing practices and earn customer trust.
• Learn why some small farms look for an alternative to the cost and paperwork associated with USDA Organic certification.
• Discover how peer inspections turn certification into an opportunity for farmers to learn from one another.
• Explore CNG’s five certification areas, from produce and flowers to livestock, beekeeping, mushrooms, and aquaponics.
• Find out how transparency helps consumers learn more about the farms producing their food.
• Hear why local food distribution, food hubs, and the economics of small-scale farming matter.
• Explore the role of seed saving in protecting agricultural diversity and helping growers become more self-reliant.
• Learn how community, mentorship, and sharing practical knowledge can help build a stronger food system.

Calls to Action & Resources

• Certified Naturally Grown: https://www.naturallygrown.org/
• Learn about the program, explore the farm directory, and find out how certification works.
• Contact Jennifer Miller: jennifer@naturallygrown.org
• Contact Erin Torgerson: erin@naturallygrown.org
• CNG Farm School: Explore educational resources for farmers.
• CNG Field Notes: Listen to the organization’s podcast.
• Book recommendation — The Seed Farmer by Dan Brisebois: A resource for anyone interested in seed production and seed saving.
• Book recommendation — The Grapes of Wrath: Jennifer’s recommended read.
• Seed Chat: https://seedchat.org/ — Continue exploring conversations about seeds and their role in our food system.
• Visit https://urbanfarm.org/certifiednaturallygrown for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

 Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

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In this Episode Farmer Greg welcomes returning guests Shawn and Beth Dougherty, homesteaders with 40 years of experience growing food and building a farm ecosystem with minimal outside inputs. They discuss their philosophy of homesteading, living soil, biological wealth, and the patterns that allow a farm to generate its own fertility and abundance. Their new book, One Cow Revolution, is an in-depth instruction manual for the family dairy cow, drawing on decades of experience with cows, goats, grazing, milk, and farm systems.

Shawn and Beth have been homesteading for the last 40 years. They speak all over the country on sustainable farming, teaching whoever will listen how to grow food without inputs. They grow 95% of what they eat and what their animals eat, and the heart of their sustainable homestead is their grass-fed dairy cow. They joined us for the first time on episode 147 all the way back in October 2016.

Key Topics

• Homesteading as producing food for your family while improving the soil
• How to grow food without relying on outside inputs
• Creating living soil is biological wealth
• How to build self-fertile farm ecosystems
• The relationship between plants, animals, soil, and sunlight
• Rotational grazing and working with natural patterns
• Learning through failure, mistakes, and setbacks
• The role of dairy cows in a homestead
• One Cow Revolution
• The Independent Farmstead
• Micrograzing and small-scale grazing
• Grass-fed dairy, milk, cheese, butter, whey, and buttermilk
• Chickens and pigs as part of the farm nutrient cycle
• Family, food, farming, and passing knowledge between generations

Key Questions Answered

What is homesteading?

Shawn and Beth define homesteading as producing food for your own consumption while improving the soil through the same activities. They see it as more than food production: it is a way of reconnecting people with natural systems and creating an environment where families can thrive.

How can a farm become less dependent on outside inputs?

The key is learning the natural patterns that generate food, animal feed, and soil fertility. Instead of continually importing fertility, a farm can cycle organic matter, manure, animals, plants, and other resources so that the ecosystem becomes increasingly self-fertile.

Why is living soil so important?

Living soil supports mineral-rich plants, which feed animals and people. Returning organic matter and nutrients to the soil allows biological wealth to increase from one generation to the next rather than being depleted.

What role does a dairy cow play on a homestead?

A dairy cow converts grass and hay into milk while also producing manure, a calf, and byproducts such as whey and buttermilk. Those resources can feed people, pigs, chickens, and the soil, creating connections throughout the farm ecosystem.

How can a dairy cow work on a small property?

The Doughertys explain that cows can fit on relatively small acreage when their food is brought to them. They describe the family dairy cow as a powerful way to convert abundant grass into nutrient-dense food and other resources for the farm.

What does failure teach us about farming?

Mistakes and setbacks force farmers to observe, experiment, and discover what actually works. Shawn and Beth describe their own years of “homesteading badly” as an important part of learning the patterns that eventually made their farm productive.

How should farmers respond to drought and other natural events?

Rather than automatically fighting every environmental change, farmers can look for the opportunities within it. Their experience with drought showed how changing conditions can strengthen warm-season grasses and renew the seed base for future conditions.

Why did Shawn and Beth write One Cow Revolution?

They wanted to capture the small, intuitive details of managing a cow that are traditionally learned by watching experienced farmers. The book is intended to provide the practical knowledge and reassurance of an experienced farmer or grandparent who can help someone understand what is happening and respond appropriately.

Episode Highlights

• Homesteading is about producing food while improving the soil through the same activities.
• A healthy farm can generate much of its own fertility, food, and abundance when its natural patterns are understood.
• Biological wealth begins with living soil and grows when nutrients and organic matter are returned to the ecosystem.
• Failure and setbacks can provide some of the most valuable education a farmer receives.
• Shawn and Beth describe the dairy cow as a central connector between grass, milk, pigs, chickens, manure, and soil.
• Grass captures sunlight and provides abundant biomass, while ruminants transform cellulose into proteins, fats, and sugars that people and other animals can use.
• The Dougherty’s see farming as a process of stewardship and responding to nature rather than forcing an ecosystem into a fixed state.
• Their goal with their books is to pass along the practical, often intuitive knowledge that comes from decades of farming experience.

Resources

Their Website One Cow Revolution - https://one-cow-revolution.com

The Independent Farmstead - Shawn and Beth Dougherty’s first book

One Cow Revolution - Instruction manual for managing a family dairy cow -

Shawn & Beth Dougherty - shawnandbeth1960@gmail.com

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/OneCowRevolution for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this Episode - What if the key to growing healthier, more productive gardens isn’t more fertilizer, but healthier living soil? Ben Lederer, co-founder of Regenerative Soil Company in North Phoenix, joins Greg to explore how compost, worm castings, mulch, and beneficial biology can transform the soil beneath your garden. You’ll learn simple ways to start composting, use kitchen scraps and chickens to build a regenerative cycle, and improve your soil while reducing reliance on synthetic inputs. Ben and Greg also share practical ideas for taking one small step toward a healthier garden and a more resilient community.

Our Guest: Ben is the co-founder of Regenerative Soil Company, a small batch amendment company based in North Phoenix. A longtime gardener, chicken keeper, and compost enthusiast, Ben is passionate about helping people grow healthier plants naturally through worm castings, regenerative gardening practices, and living soil biology. He also works in turf grass management and enjoys teaching practical, approachable ways to build healthy soil at home

Key Topics

• Ben Lederer
• Regenerative Soil Company
• Worm castings
• Living soil biology
• Regenerative gardening
• Composting
• Green mulch and cowpeas
• Chickens and backyard food systems
• Local soil amendments
• Turf grass and soil management
• Permaculture and closed-loop gardening
• Arizona Worm Farm
• Community gardening
• The Worm Farmer’s Handbook

Key Questions Answered

How did Ben Lederer get into regenerative gardening and soil health?

Ben grew up watching his parents garden and became fascinated by how plants grow. His experience in landscaping and turf grass management eventually led him to question conventional practices and look for ways to build healthier soil naturally. 

What are worm castings, and why are they useful in the garden?

Worm castings are worm-processed organic material that contains microbes and nutrients. Ben describes them as a gentle organic fertilizer that can help plants grow stronger and handle environmental stress, while Greg shares his experience using them to reduce heat and transplant stress. 

What are some natural ways to improve garden soil?

Ben recommends compost, worm castings, mulch, and green mulch. These practices can add organic matter, support soil biology, retain moisture, moderate soil temperature, and improve conditions for future plantings. 

How can cowpeas function as green mulch?

Cowpeas help cover the soil, keep it cooler, and contribute nitrogen through their relationship with soil biology. At the end of the season, Ben recommends cutting the plants down and leaving the roots in the soil so they decompose in place. 

How can a beginner start composting at home?

Ben says the simplest approach is to establish a compost pile in an appropriate area of the yard. A basic compost system needs a balance of nitrogen-rich “greens” and carbon-rich “browns,” along with moisture and occasional turning. 

How can gardeners get enough green material for compost?

Ben suggests building relationships with neighbors and offering to collect their kitchen scraps. Providing neighbors with a five-gallon bucket gives them an easy way to contribute food waste while helping the gardener build compost. 

How do chickens, compost, and gardening form a regenerative cycle?

Chickens can eat kitchen scraps, produce manure for the compost pile, and help turn and work through compost. The resulting compost feeds the garden, which produces more food and food scraps, creating a useful cycle between animals, compost, soil, and plants. 

Why does Ben emphasize buying soil amendments locally?

Ben says local compost and soil products are more likely to retain active microbial life because they have not spent long periods sitting on a store shelf. He encourages gardeners to seek out local compost and soil producers. 

What does Ben see as the role of competition among local worm farms?

Ben views other worm farms as potential complements rather than competitors. He believes there is ample demand for locally produced worm castings and that collaboration can help more gardeners succeed. 

What did Ben learn from personal setbacks?

Ben describes rebuilding his life after struggling with drugs and alcohol as a teenager and young adult. He says the experience taught him resilience, responsibility, and accountability, and that those lessons now influence how he approaches agriculture and business. 

What book does Ben recommend for people interested in vermicomposting?

He recommends The Worm Farmer’s Handbook by Rhonda Sherman, particularly for its detailed treatment of vermicomposting and producing worm castings at a larger scale. 

Key Takeaways

• Worm castings provide organic matter, nutrients, and microbial life for the garden.
• Composting kitchen scraps can reduce waste while building healthier soil.
• Mulch helps protect soil from heat and moisture loss.
• Cowpeas can provide living ground cover and leave valuable roots in the soil after the growing season.
• Chickens can become part of a closed-loop backyard food system.
• Building relationships with neighbors can solve the challenge of sourcing compost ingredients.
• Local soil amendments can help gardeners access fresher, biologically active materials.
• Gardening success comes from learning, experimenting, and accepting that some plants will fail.
• Ben sees collaboration among local producers as a way to strengthen gardening communities.
• Small actions, such as starting a compost pile, can contribute to stronger communities.

Episode Highlights

• Ben describes growing up fascinated by backyard gardening and eventually bringing together his experiences in gardening, landscaping, and turf grass management. 
• Worm castings are introduced as a low-risk organic fertilizer rich in microbial life. 
• Compost, worm castings, and mulch form the foundation of Ben’s approach to improving soil naturally. 
• Cowpeas can cover large areas, cool the soil, contribute nitrogen, and leave decomposing roots behind when cut down. 
• Ben explains how chickens, compost, gardens, food scraps, and eggs can work together as a backyard regenerative cycle. 
• Ben shares how his personal recovery taught him resilience and accountability and shaped his approach to building a regenerative business. 
• Ben discusses why he sees Arizona Worm Farm as a complement rather than a competitor and why local worm-casting production matters. 
• Ben’s final advice: pursue your dreams, start small, get your hands dirty, and recognize that individual actions can make a difference. 

Calls to Action & Resources

• Regenerative Soil Company — https://regenerativesoilco.com
• Instagram — https://instagram.com/regenerativesoilco
• Email — info@regenerativesoilco.com
• Urban Farm Podcast Show Notes — https://urbanfarm.org/regenerativesoilco
• Book — The Worm Farmer’s Handbook by Rhonda Sherman

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/regenerativesoilco for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

Subtitle

In this Episode Wendi Bergin and Greg Peterson explore preparedness as a practical, positive part of everyday life rather than fear-driven survivalism. They discuss building a working pantry, storing and rotating food, developing skills, maintaining backups, and preparing for the specific challenges of where you live. Greg and Wendi also share lessons from Hurricane Helene and other emergencies, emphasizing that preparedness creates peace and makes it easier to care for family, neighbors, and community. 

Key Topics

• Preparedness as a way of life
• Working pantry and food storage
• Freeze-dried and survival foods
• Food-system vulnerability
• Three-day grocery supply and “three-hour supply”
• Meal planning for food storage
• Pressure canning and food preservation
• “Two is one, one is none”
• Backup power and generators
• Water storage and filtration
• Emergency cooking and lighting
• Skills versus possessions
• Hurricane Helene preparedness lessons
• Neighborhood food infrastructure

Key Questions Answered

What does preparedness look like without becoming hoarding?

Wendi and Greg describe preparedness as having useful supplies that are part of everyday life. Food should be familiar, used, and rotated rather than purchased and forgotten. 

How can someone build a food supply without buying large amounts of survival food?

Start with meals the household already eats. Wendi recommends identifying 10 familiar meals and gradually stocking enough ingredients to make each meal multiple times. 

Why should preparedness be for everyone?

Emergencies aren't limited to natural disasters. Job loss, health crises, family needs, power outages, and other unexpected circumstances can all create situations where having food, water, skills, and supplies makes life easier. 

Why are skills more valuable than stuff?

Skills travel with you. Greg explains that gardening, food preservation, cooking, and other practical abilities remain useful even if you move somewhere else or lose access to your existing equipment and supplies. 

What does “two is one, one is none” mean in practical preparedness?

It means having backups because equipment can fail when you need it most. Both Greg and Wendi share experiences where generators or other equipment failed or had to be given to someone else. 

How should people prepare for their particular location?

Preparedness depends on local conditions. The conversation covers hurricanes in Florida, ice storms in New Jersey, extreme heat in the low desert, and the different needs of other climates and households. 

How can preparedness strengthen a neighborhood?

Prepared people can share resources and skills instead of simply relying on others. Greg describes neighbors sharing food during Hurricane Helene and his idea for a neighborhood potato-planting party to build food production into the community. 

How can someone get started today?

Start by taking inventory of what you already have: food, water, filters, flashlights, batteries, cooking equipment, generators, and other supplies. Then identify the gaps that matter most for your household and location. 

Episode Highlights

• Preparedness doesn't have to be heavy or fear-based; it can simply become part of everyday life. 
• Build a pantry around food you actually eat, and rotate what you store. 
• A stocked pantry became especially valuable when Greg and Heidi experienced a week without water and electricity during Hurricane Helene. 
• Test generators and backup equipment regularly instead of assuming they will work when needed. 
• Water, food, shelter, cooking, and light are fundamental preparedness priorities. 
• Skills can be carried anywhere, while possessions can be lost, left behind, or fail. 
• Start small: inventory what you already have, then fill the gaps based on your circumstances. 
• Preparedness can move beyond the household into neighborhood food infrastructure and community care. 

Calls to Action & Resources

Homesteading Made Simple — Podcast and YouTube channel featuring homesteading skills, mindset, gardens, animals, and homestead properties. 

Food storage inventory — Start by documenting the food, water, equipment, and other preparedness resources already in your home. 

10 Times Food Prep Document HERE

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/1007 for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

A Seed Chat w/ Rebecca Newburn

Rebecca Newburn, co-founder of Richmond Grows Seed Lending Library and a leader of the Seed Library Network, joins Greg Peterson for a conversation about the power of community seed libraries. They explore how seed libraries differ from seed banks, why local seed matters, and how seed saving can increase biodiversity, food resilience, and community connection. Rebecca also shares new resources for seed saving, education, children, librarians, and communities that want to create their own seed-saving cohorts. The conversation ultimately comes back to a simple idea: seeds are life embodied, and they sprout hope.

Key Topics & Entities

• Seed Library Network
• Richmond Grows Seed Lending Library
• Seed libraries vs. seed banks
• Community seed saving and sharing
• Local and regionally adapted seed
• Seed diversity and biodiversity
• Permaculture and traditional wisdom
• Seed-saving education
• Seed-saving cohorts and teacher training
• Seed-saving guidelines and charts
• Seed libraries in public libraries and schools
• Food resilience and cultural preservation

Key Questions Answered

What is a seed library?

A seed library is a free community resource where people can get seeds without paying for them or being required to return seeds. When gardeners learn to save and return seeds, the library can become increasingly self-sustaining.

How is a seed library different from a seed bank?

Seed libraries generally serve home gardeners and don't require seeds to be returned. Seed banks are more commonly associated with farmers and often require a return of seed in greater quantity than was borrowed.

Where did the modern seed library movement come from?

Rebecca was inspired by BASIL, the Bay Area Seed Interchange Library at the Berkeley Ecology Center. While taking a permaculture design course, she connected with one of its founders and decided to develop a replicable model for creating seed libraries.

Why is local seed so important?

Rebecca believes communities need to re-localize their seed. Much commercial seed is produced in different climates and sometimes different countries. Locally saved seed has the opportunity to adapt to local conditions while communities preserve greater genetic and cultural diversity.

What does localizing seed look like?

It means more people learning to save and share seeds, increasing the diversity of seed stocks, and paying attention to which plants actually thrive in their own communities.

What should home gardeners save seed from?

Save seed from what you like. Greg and Rebecca emphasize selecting plants that perform well in your particular environment and produce food you actually enjoy eating.

What makes a seed library successful?

Success depends on the community. It might mean getting people to garden for the first time, meeting the community's demand for seed, or gradually increasing the percentage of locally donated seed.

Why is genetic diversity valuable in a home garden?

Greater diversity can mean different plants mature at different times, while variation may provide more resilience when pests, frost, or other challenges affect the garden.

What does a gardener need to know about saving viable seed?

Seed saving isn't simply about collecting seeds. Some crops need cross-pollination and a sufficient number of plants to maintain viable genetics. Rebecca's forthcoming seed-saving chart addresses ease of saving, potential cross-pollination, viable seed production, and recommended population sizes.

When are cucumber seeds ready to save?

Unlike cucumbers harvested for eating, cucumbers intended for seed saving should remain on the vine until they become fully mature, orange, and even begin to soften. This allows the seeds to develop properly.

How can communities create seed-saving teachers?

The Seed Library Network is developing replicable seed-saving cohorts that combine online instruction from experienced seed savers with local hands-on learning. The goal is to help communities develop people who can teach seed saving to others.

How can seed libraries connect with children and educators?

Rebecca is developing coloring books, seed-saving activities, story-time resources, songs, bookmarks, downloadable materials, and "Program In A Box" concepts that libraries, educators, and homeschoolers can use to teach children about seeds.

Episode Highlights

• Seed libraries are free community resources where people can access seeds without the obligation to return them, while seed banks typically involve more formal seed-return requirements. 
• Rebecca's experience creating Richmond Grows became a replicable template that has helped thousands of seed libraries get started around the world. 
• The Seed Library Network map has about 1,500 self-reported seed libraries, while Rebecca notes that the actual number worldwide is much larger. 
• Rebecca wants to see more local seed, arguing that centralization of seed has contributed to lost biodiversity and that locally adapted seed becomes increasingly important amid extreme weather. 
• Greg shares his own experience discovering crops worth saving after moving from Phoenix to Asheville, including a self-seeding basil, a favorite round cucumber, and productive broccolini. 
• Rebecca is developing a seed-saving chart covering plant families, ease of saving, cross-pollination, viable seed production, and recommended population sizes for home gardeners. 
• The Seed Library Network is developing a 2027 cohort model to train more community seed-saving teachers and make high-quality seed education available to communities around the country. 
• Rebecca describes seeds as grounding, life embodied, and something that "sprout hope," connecting seed saving with resilience and community. 

Calls to Action & Resources

• Seed Library Network — seedlibrarynetwork.org
• Seed Library Map — Explore or add a community seed library through the Seed Library Network website.
• Create a Library Resources — Free step-by-step resources for starting a seed library.
• Richmond Grows Seed Library — https://www.richmondgrowsseeds.org/
• Seed Library Network Newsletter — https://seedlibrarynetwork.substack.com/

Sign up for our monthly Seed Chat at SeedChat.org

Visit UrbanFarm.org/1006 for the show notes and links on this episode!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this Episode Tom Spellman shares more than five decades of experience growing, propagating, and managing fruit trees, with a focus on what he calls urban fruit tree culture. He explains why backyard growers should prioritize varieties they enjoy, choose trees and rootstocks suited to their climate, manage tree size, and use successive ripening to extend harvests. Tom also discusses protecting fruit trees from heat, sunburn, wind, and sudden weather events through whitewashing, shade, pre-irrigation, and mulching. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes a simple goal for backyard growers: get a little bit of fruit all the time rather than an overwhelming amount all at once.

Our Guest: Tom Spellman has been involved in the nursery business since 1973. At that time, he was a freshman in high school and rode his skateboard to work. Since then he has worked for several different nurseries including La Verne Nursery where he was general manager for 20 years. And Dave Wilson Nursery where he was the southwestern sales Manager for over 20 years. Since retiring he is an Urban Fruit Tree and orchard consultant. Most of all he is the person that knows more about fruit trees than anyone else I know!

Key Topics & Entities

• Urban fruit tree culture
• Fruit tree variety selection
• Rootstocks and climate adaptability
• Tree size management
• Successive ripening
• Bare root fruit trees
• Desert fruit tree growing
• Sunburn and sunscald protection
• Wind stress and windbreaks
• Pre-irrigation before extreme heat
• Mulching and soil temperature
• Companion planting
• Citrus in desert climates
• Container-grown citrus

Key Questions Answered

What is urban fruit tree culture?

Urban fruit tree culture is growing fruit trees under limited backyard conditions, where space is restricted and the goal is to make the most productive use of that space. Tom recommends growing varieties you actually like and will use while considering climate, geography, and soil type.

Why is tree size management so important for backyard growers?

Backyard growers generally don't need hundreds of pounds of one type of fruit at once. Keeping trees compact makes pruning, thinning, harvesting, and other maintenance easier while allowing multiple varieties to be grown in the same space.

How can successive ripening extend a backyard harvest?

By planting varieties that ripen at different times, gardeners can harvest the same type of fruit over a much longer period. Instead of getting one large crop for two weeks, several varieties can provide fruit for a month and a half or longer.

How should gardeners choose a fruit tree rootstock?

The rootstock needs to be adapted to the gardener's climate and soil as well as the variety itself. Tom explains that desert growers need rootstocks capable of handling heat, sandy soil, low-desert conditions, and alkalinity.

Why are bare root trees pruned before planting?

When bare root trees are dug, their roots are pruned. The top should be pruned back to balance the reduced root system so the tree can establish new growth successfully. Tom's experiments show that heavily pruned bare root trees can develop significantly more vigor and new scaffold growth than unpruned trees.

How can fruit trees be protected from extreme desert heat?

Tom recommends protecting exposed bark from sunburn with a breathable whitewash, using limited temporary shade during a tree's first summer, and thoroughly pre-irrigating before a predicted extreme heat event.

How does mulch help fruit trees in hot climates?

A four- to six-inch layer of mulch can keep soil temperatures significantly cooler, improve water retention, increase biological activity, and reduce weed seed germination. Tom also recommends maintaining a broad mulched basin around fruit trees.

What is the advantage of companion planting around young fruit trees?

The space around young trees is already being irrigated and maintained, so annual or temporary companion crops can make productive use of that space while the trees are becoming established. Crops such as cowpeas and sweet potatoes can also help reduce ground temperatures.

Why is citrus especially valuable for desert gardeners?

Citrus offers a wide range of varieties with different harvest periods. By selecting varieties with different seasons, gardeners can potentially harvest citrus for many months of the year.

Can people grow citrus in climates where it cannot survive outdoors year-round?

Yes. Tom describes container culture as an option for people with sunrooms or greenhouses. Trees can be moved outdoors after the danger of frost and brought back inside when cold weather returns.

Why is container culture difficult in the desert?

Extreme heat and sun can create severe stress for container-grown trees. Tom explains that some desert wholesale growers use a "pot in pot" system, placing containers into the ground to keep the root zone cooler.

What is the main difference between commercial and backyard fruit growing?

Commercial growers generally want a large quantity of one variety to ripen at the same time for efficient harvest and marketing. Backyard growers usually benefit more from the opposite approach: multiple varieties that provide a smaller amount of fruit over a longer period.

Episode Highlights

• Tom began working in a nursery at age 13, riding his skateboard about a mile and a half to work.
• He spent 20 years working with mentor Dieter Lotter at La Verne Nursery and describes that experience as an education that couldn't be bought in school.
• Urban fruit tree culture starts with growing what you like, what you will use, and what is adaptable to your climate and soil.
• Keeping fruit trees compact allows backyard growers to manage, harvest, and prune them from the ground while making better use of limited space.
• Successive ripening allows multiple varieties to share the footprint of one large tree while extending the harvest season.
• Pre-irrigating before an extreme heat event can make the difference between severe tree damage and a healthy orchard.
• A good layer of mulch can cool the soil, conserve water, improve biological activity, and reduce weeds.
• Tom's central philosophy for backyard growers is simple: "a little bit of fruit all the time."

For more information on Greg's Urban Farm Fruit Tree program in Phoenix visit FruitTrees.org

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/1005 for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this Episode Craig LeHoullier shares his lifelong journey from childhood gardening memories to becoming a renowned heirloom tomato grower, seed saver, and plant breeder. He explains the differences between heirloom, open-pollinated, and hybrid tomatoes and why preserving tomato genetics matters for future gardeners. Craig discusses the Dwarf Tomato Breeding Project, the story behind Cherokee Purple, growing tomatoes in containers and straw bales, and the importance of learning directly from your plants. He encourages gardeners to get their hands dirty, experiment, save seeds, and enjoy gardening as a lifelong journey.

Our Guest: Craig is a North Carolina-based gardener, author, and plant breeder known for his deep expertise in heirloom tomatoes. With a PhD in chemistry from Dartmouth and a 25-year career in pharmaceuticals, he later shifted full-time into gardening and seed saving. Craig is a longtime advisor to Seed Savers Exchange, and is credited with helping popularize varieties like Cherokee Purple tomatoes. He co-leads the Dwarf Tomato Breeding Project and authored Epic Tomatoes, a widely respected guide for home growers.

Key Topics & Entities

• Craig LeHoullier and his 40-year gardening journey
• Heirloom, hybrid, and open-pollinated tomatoes
• Seed Savers Exchange
• Tomato seed saving and preservation
• The Dwarf Tomato Breeding Project
• Cherokee Purple tomato
• Tomato breeding and genetics
• Epic Tomatoes
• Straw bale gardening
• Container tomato growing
• Victory Seed Company
• Gardening misinformation and experimentation
• Food systems and food deserts
• Gardening as community building

Key Questions Answered

What makes a tomato an heirloom?

Craig defines an heirloom as a genetically stable variety that can be passed down through saved seed, with age and a meaningful history or story associated with it.

What is the difference between heirloom and open-pollinated tomatoes?

All heirlooms are open-pollinated, but not every open-pollinated tomato is an heirloom. Craig uses 1949, when Burpee's Big Boy was introduced, as a useful guidepost for distinguishing older heirlooms from newer open-pollinated varieties.

Why are hybrid tomatoes valuable?

Hybrids can combine desirable traits such as disease resistance, heat tolerance, growth habits, and productivity. Craig emphasizes that there are excellent hybrids, heirlooms, and open-pollinated varieties.

How did the Dwarf Tomato Breeding Project begin?

Craig and Patrina began crossing large, flavorful heirlooms with dwarf tomato varieties to create tomatoes that could be grown in smaller spaces while retaining excellent flavor and interesting characteristics.

Why is Cherokee Purple important to Craig?

Craig received seeds in 1990 from J.D. Green, who told him they came through a Cherokee family history in Tennessee. Craig grew the tomato, named it Cherokee Purple, and helped distribute it so the variety and its story could continue.

What makes a tomato variety worth preserving?

Beyond flavor and popularity, a variety may contain genetic traits that could become important for future challenges such as heat, drought, water scarcity, or emerging diseases.

What is one of the biggest mistakes gardeners make with tomatoes?

Craig says gardeners need to pay attention to their plants. Daily observation can reveal early signs of disease, nutritional problems, water stress, and other issues before they become serious.

What is the key to successful straw bale gardening?

A straw bale is conditioned with nitrogen, water, and fertilizer for roughly two weeks before planting. The bale heats up as it decomposes and provides a productive growing medium that eventually becomes useful organic matter.

What tomatoes work well in small spaces?

Craig recommends Sun Gold cherry tomatoes, dwarf tomatoes, and micro-dwarf varieties for containers and limited growing spaces. Cherry tomatoes can also perform well with less sunlight than many larger varieties.

What is Craig's advice for beginning tomato growers?

Get your hands dirty, start with good seedlings or learn to start your own seeds, and let the plants teach you. Gardening is an education and a journey rather than a rigid set of instructions.

Episode Highlights

• Craig traces his love of gardening to childhood memories of working with his father and grandfather and describes how joining Seed Savers Exchange in 1986 sparked his passion for heirloom tomatoes.
• He explains how heirloom tomatoes preserve genetics, history, and stories—and why today's newer open-pollinated varieties may become tomorrow's heirlooms.
• Craig describes the Dwarf Tomato Breeding Project, which ultimately produced about 170 new varieties through collaboration among roughly 1,000 gardeners.
• He explains why preserving even ordinary tomato varieties can matter, since hidden genetic traits may provide future solutions for heat, drought, water shortages, and disease.
• Craig tells the remarkable story of how he received the tomato that became Cherokee Purple and how a chain of seed sharing kept the variety from disappearing.
• He explains why gardeners should observe their tomato plants every day and adjust their methods based on growing conditions rather than blindly following a fixed schedule.
• Craig describes straw bale gardening, including conditioning the bales, managing water and nutrients, and eventually reusing the spent straw as valuable growing material.
• He closes with a simple philosophy: get your hands dirty, grow something, turn off the distractions, and let gardening change your life.

Resources

• Craig LeHoullier's Website — craiglehoullier.com
• Instagram — @nctomatoman
• Email Craig — nctomatoman@gmail.com
• Epic Tomatoes — Epic Tomatoes: How to Select and Grow the Best Varieties of All Time
• Victory Seed Company — victoryseeds.com
• Joe Gardener Organic Gardening School — Self-paced courses covering seed starting, organic vegetable gardening, and tomato growing.
• Seed Savers Exchange — Craig's longtime seed-saving community and an important part of his journey.

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/EpicTomatoes for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

A Rosie On The House Replay w/ Jenny Beasley

Jenny Beasley of Heart for the City shares how a barren dirt lot in Glendale, Arizona, became a thriving community garden serving families, schools, volunteers, and gardeners from eight different cultures. She explains how partnerships, raised beds, shared food, and educational programs helped transform the space into much more than a place to grow vegetables. The conversation explores how community gardens create belonging, purpose, friendships, healthier neighborhoods, and stronger connections between people. Jenny also offers practical advice for anyone interested in starting a community garden of their own. 

Key Topics & Entities

• Heart for the City Garden
• Jenny Beasley
• Community gardens
• Glendale, Arizona
• Raised garden beds
• Community partnerships
• City of Glendale
• School garden partnerships
• Eight different cultures
• Cucuzza squash
• Urban gardening in the desert
• Gardening education
• Food access
• Community building

Key Questions Answered

How did Heart for the City Garden begin?

Jenny Beasley was challenged to transform a barren, partly asphalt-covered dirt lot into a community garden. The City of Glendale provided the property, while a community development grant helped fund the initial development. 

What made the raised beds such a game changer?

The raised beds gave individual families and gardeners a sense of ownership. They also allowed people from different cultures to grow vegetables they remembered from childhood or from their home countries. 

How does the garden bring different cultures together?

Gardeners from places including Jordan, Trinidad, China, Mexico, Hungary, and Peru grow alongside one another, sharing vegetables, recipes, gardening knowledge, and traditions. 

What is the biggest lesson Jenny learned about building community?

People want to feel connected and be part of something. Growing side by side gives people a natural way to participate, contribute, and build relationships. 

How can someone begin creating a community garden?

First determine what type of community garden you want to create, then visit and learn from gardens with similar goals. Jenny says learning from people who have already developed successful gardens can save enormous amounts of time. 

How does the garden operate in the Arizona heat?

Heart for the City Garden grows year-round. During the hottest part of the year, peppers, okra, herbs, and other crops are growing, while tomatoes can be more challenging. 

How does the garden create purpose for people?

Jenny describes a woman who unexpectedly retired and found purpose, friendships, activity, and a new routine through spending time at the garden. 

What happens beyond gardening at Heart for the City?

The garden hosts cooking events, recipe sharing, educational activities, guest speakers, celebrations, and even weddings. Visitors may leave with seeds, plants, or planting calendars. 

How does the surrounding neighborhood participate?

Neighbors walk to the garden with their children, donate gardening supplies, volunteer, and help one another. The garden has become a close-knit neighborhood resource rather than simply a place to grow food. 

What does Jenny consider the garden's greatest accomplishment?

She is most proud of how the gardeners connect, help one another, care for their garden spaces, celebrate life's milestones, and continue learning. As another gardener put it, they are “growing people also.” 

Episode Highlights

• A barren dirt lot becomes a thriving community garden and food forest over roughly 12 years. 
• Raised beds become a “game changer,” giving families ownership and encouraging participation from multiple cultures. 
• Partnerships with the City of Glendale, schools, businesses, and volunteers help sustain the garden. 
• The garden's cucuzza squash inspires a club, a giant trellis, shared recipes, and plenty of fun. 
• Gardeners support one another with rides, meals, home check-ins, and friendship—creating what Jenny calls a “big garden family.” 
• Cooking and food-sharing events help people learn what to do with the vegetables they grow. 
• The garden welcomes people from throughout the area who want to learn about gardening or simply connect with others. 
• Jenny's central message: community gardens don't just grow vegetables—they grow people and relationships. 

Calls to Action & Resources

Heart for the City Garden — heartforthecityaz.org

Contact Jenny Beasley — hftc.gardens@gmail.com

Visit Heart for the City Garden — 69th Avenue, north of Bethany Home, behind the fire station in Glendale, Arizona. 

Support the Garden — Donations and community support help with ongoing expenses, including water and garden operations. 

In this episode we explore the concept of wicking bed gardens, hosted by Romey Romero & Farmer Greg, our guest is .

Visit www.UrbanFarm.org/1003 for the show notes and links on this episode!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg, Janis or Ray to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this July Seed Chat, Greg Peterson, Bill McDorman, and Landen Schaelling explore how compost, fungi, microbial life, and living plant roots work together to build healthier soil. Landen explains why keeping plants growing is more important for long-term soil carbon than simply adding organic matter, and why fungal-rich compost can help store the carbon plants produce. The conversation covers cover crops, composting methods, curing, moisture, carbon-to-nitrogen ratios, chop-and-drop, crimping, and compost extracts. 

Our Guests: Landen Schaelling is the founder of Sacred Soil Solutions. He is focused on bringing optimal and approachable microbe inputs to gardeners and homesteaders, while also teaching farmers in the American West how to implement soil building solutions at scale.

And Bill McDorman has committed his life to community-based seed stewardship. In 1984, he started Seeds Trust High Altitude Gardens, a bioregional mail order seed company that he ran for 28 years. He authored the book Basic Seed Saving in 1994, and in 2010 Bill and his wife, Belle Starr, founded Seed School.

Key Topics

• Compost and soil health
• Fungal-dominant compost
• Soil food web
• Cover crops and living roots
• Rhizophagy cycle
• Microbial fermentations
• Liquid carbon and soil carbon storage
• Thermophilic composting
• Johnson-Su composting
• Bokashi
• Carbon-to-nitrogen ratios
• Chop-and-drop and crimping
• Compost curing and moisture
• Landen Schaelling / Sacred Soil Solutions

Key Questions Answered

Why are living plants more important than simply adding compost for long-term soil improvement?

Living plants act as the soil's “income earners,” putting liquid carbon into the soil through their roots. Compost can support that system, but keeping roots in the ground is what continually feeds the soil food web. 

What makes compost truly valuable?

The goal isn't simply the solid organic material. High-quality compost provides a living community of fungi and other soil food web organisms that can interact with plant roots and help store plant-derived carbon. 

How can you encourage fungal growth in compost?

Landen recommends a high-carbon pile, roughly 60–70% carbon, along with consistent moisture. Chunkier wood chips can help encourage fungal activity, and the compost needs a long curing period for the microbial community to develop. 

How long should compost cure?

After the heating phase, Landen recommends roughly nine to 12 months of curing with consistent moisture around 50–60%. He describes seeing a significant increase in fungi, protozoa, and other soil food web organisms as the compost matures. 

Should compost be sifted?

Landen strongly recommends against sifting mature compost because it adds oxygen, dries the material, and can damage fungal hyphae. The living organisms on the compost matter more than producing a perfectly fine, crumbly product. 

Can weeds function as cover crops?

Some weeds can contribute positively when they are temporarily left growing, but not all weeds provide the same benefits. Landen specifically notes that context matters and that some weeds can be less supportive of fungal relationships. 

What is the difference between chop-and-drop and crimping?

Chop-and-drop can create a rapid release of nitrogen, while crimping breaks the stems without completely severing them, allowing nutrients to move more slowly into the root system. Either approach works best when another crop is ready to capture the released nutrients. 

How often should microbial fermentation sprays be applied?

Landen says plants can benefit from very frequent, even daily, applications because they respond well to small amounts delivered consistently. However, he emphasizes that less frequent applications can still provide significant benefits when time is limited. 

What should consumers look for when buying compost?

Landen recommends asking compost producers for microscope analysis. He argues that microscopy provides important evidence about the biological quality of the finished compost. 

Episode Highlights

• Living plants, not dead organic matter, are the primary “income earners” that build soil carbon.
• Cover crops keep roots in the ground and continually support the soil food web.
• Fungal-rich compost helps capture and store the carbon produced by plants.
• A compost pile with roughly 60–70% carbon can encourage strong fungal development.
• Thermophilic composting is only part of the process; long-term curing is critical.
• Maintaining 50–60% moisture for nine to 12 months allows fungi and other soil organisms to develop.
• Sifting compost can damage fungal hyphae and reduce biological quality.
• Crimping can provide a slower nutrient release than chop-and-drop.
• The goal of compost is not simply decomposition—it is developing and applying microbial life.
• A fungally dominant compost can be extracted into water and applied directly rather than aerated like a bacterial tea. 

Calls to Action & Resources

• Attend future live Seed Chats — https://seedchat.org
• Listen to previous Seed Chats — https://urbanfarmpodcast.com
• Learn about Sacred Soil Solutions — Contact Landen Schaelling directly for information on Microbe Master Mix and educational resources. Instagram: @sacredsoilsolutions
• Facebook: Landen Schaelling
• Email: Landen.schaelling@protonmail.com

Our monthly Seed Chat at SeedChat.org

In This Podcast: In this month's Seed Chat Greg Peterson and Bill McDorman, discuss .

Visit UrbanFarm.org/1002 for the show notes and links on this episode!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.